Viper = POS car with powerful engine?
04-27-2003, 11:17 PM
#16
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Originally posted by guionM
It wasn't meant to be mean or a flame, but was meant as a way of demonstrating that just like someone who doesn't understand why anyone would be interested in a Camaro calling one a POS, same goes for a Viper.
Actually the reason they sell so few is because they planned it that way. It was supposed to have a short production run, and was concieved simply to give the Dodge brand (and Chrysler in general) a big morale boost. But a funny thing happened. The waiting list to get one never died down! In the end, they did clear money on the whole project, and there is actually a 2nd generation out. To say that the reason they sell few is because of the consumer isn't truthful. It's simply an excuse to slam a car that's actually doing well, is is very desireable to the customers it's aimed at.
Again, it's an uncompromising car that isn't made for everybody. I can dump money into my Z28 to make it faster than a Corvette, but that doesn't make my car a Corvette. By that logic, Camaro Z28s should have devastated Corvettes in the showrooms, let alone be more popular than SSs. The simple rule is that people want what people buy. Viper simply isn't marketed to you.
Again, you completely misunderstand what a Viper is. It ISN'T a commuter car to take to the grocery store, and unlike Corvette, you are unlikely to se women driving them. As for driving lessons, what exact driving lessons do I have to take if I ever bought a Viper? BMW has a training course to learn how to get more out of the M-cars, and Porsches (if any car needs driver lessons) needs lessons to handle a car with that weighted anvil hung out back.
What cars are we seeing that have Viper's performance for less than half the cost?? Last I checked, the only one that comes close to your statement is the Z06 Corvette, which at $51,300 is well more than half of Viper's $80,000 price.
Just for the record, the Dodge Viper (newest edition) does 0-60 in LESS than 4 seconds, the quarter mile in under 12 seconds at over 120mph, and tops out at just under 200 mph.
Z06 does 0-60 in the low 4s, the quarter mile in the mid 12 second range in the 115-118 range, and tops 171 mph top speed.
I would post some links, but you can use Google & Yahoo just as easily as I can.
Corvette is America's favorite Sports Car. Viper is America's only Supercar. [/B]
It wasn't meant to be mean or a flame, but was meant as a way of demonstrating that just like someone who doesn't understand why anyone would be interested in a Camaro calling one a POS, same goes for a Viper.
Actually the reason they sell so few is because they planned it that way. It was supposed to have a short production run, and was concieved simply to give the Dodge brand (and Chrysler in general) a big morale boost. But a funny thing happened. The waiting list to get one never died down! In the end, they did clear money on the whole project, and there is actually a 2nd generation out. To say that the reason they sell few is because of the consumer isn't truthful. It's simply an excuse to slam a car that's actually doing well, is is very desireable to the customers it's aimed at.
Again, it's an uncompromising car that isn't made for everybody. I can dump money into my Z28 to make it faster than a Corvette, but that doesn't make my car a Corvette. By that logic, Camaro Z28s should have devastated Corvettes in the showrooms, let alone be more popular than SSs. The simple rule is that people want what people buy. Viper simply isn't marketed to you.
Again, you completely misunderstand what a Viper is. It ISN'T a commuter car to take to the grocery store, and unlike Corvette, you are unlikely to se women driving them. As for driving lessons, what exact driving lessons do I have to take if I ever bought a Viper? BMW has a training course to learn how to get more out of the M-cars, and Porsches (if any car needs driver lessons) needs lessons to handle a car with that weighted anvil hung out back.
What cars are we seeing that have Viper's performance for less than half the cost?? Last I checked, the only one that comes close to your statement is the Z06 Corvette, which at $51,300 is well more than half of Viper's $80,000 price.
Just for the record, the Dodge Viper (newest edition) does 0-60 in LESS than 4 seconds, the quarter mile in under 12 seconds at over 120mph, and tops out at just under 200 mph.
Z06 does 0-60 in the low 4s, the quarter mile in the mid 12 second range in the 115-118 range, and tops 171 mph top speed.
I would post some links, but you can use Google & Yahoo just as easily as I can.
Corvette is America's favorite Sports Car. Viper is America's only Supercar. [/B]
Yes, the Viper is great at what it was designed to be:
A motor with two seats and four wheels. I'd take one over a Z06, but that's just my opinion.
04-27-2003, 11:17 PM
#17
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Originally posted by Meccadeth
Which will be almost as fast as a Viper once GM lets the cat out of the bag and says it will get the LS6...
Which will be almost as fast as a Viper once GM lets the cat out of the bag and says it will get the LS6...
too bad the 7.5L V12 doesn't fit
04-27-2003, 11:37 PM
#18
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Originally posted by bigsteve7
I agree 100%. The Viper is just uncompromising. It'd be a cool car to have as long as you had something else more civil parked in the garage to drive as well. I would never choose one for a daily driver.
I agree 100%. The Viper is just uncompromising. It'd be a cool car to have as long as you had something else more civil parked in the garage to drive as well. I would never choose one for a daily driver.
People will not equate Corvette to a POS car, although it shares many "problems" of the Viper. Bad interior quality, cheap plastic, pieces not fitting together. Yet, to most of you Corvette is a world class, value packed sports car.
Bring up a competitive product - and trash is being spoken about it up and down.
Let's also not talk about beauty - it IS in the eye of the beholder. Many people think Porsches are hideous and ugly.
Last edited by muckz; 04-28-2003 at 12:07 AM.
04-27-2003, 11:40 PM
#19
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Originally posted by bulldoguav
All hail the wise guionM.
Yes, the Viper is great at what it was designed to be:
A motor with two seats and four wheels. I'd take one over a Z06, but that's just my opinion.
All hail the wise guionM.
Yes, the Viper is great at what it was designed to be:
A motor with two seats and four wheels. I'd take one over a Z06, but that's just my opinion.
But though I wouldn't buy one myself, I do have a very healthy respect for them, and I'm simply not going to delude myself into thinking that simply because it isn't something I'd buy, it a POS car.
As for the "all wise" remark, I simply check Yahoo & Google before I make statements I'm unsure of (to avoid getting burned). It's easy, it's quick, it takes less than 15-20 seconds, and I simply have a big problem resisting the urge to debate people who simply don't take the extra few seconds to check on things before they make wrong (as in today) or simply stupid (as others in the past) statements
04-27-2003, 11:57 PM
#20
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Originally posted by Meccadeth
But as a car...it is a POS...sure it has a powerful engine...and looks like a snake on wheels...but the problems it has AS a car, far outweigh the positive things this vehicle has going for it, in the mind of the consumer...which is why they sell so few. It is basicly just a hotrod, and thats great that their selling that, but when I'm looking for a car, I want to be comfortable, and not needs extensive driving lessons in that car before I actually own it. Thats why I would have a hotrod in the garage, that only cost me less than 20K to make just as fast if not faster than a Viper...
And someone said something to the nature of "well if the Viper is a POS w/ a fast engine, well then the same should be said for the Corvette....Well I don't think so...You don't need any driving lessons when driving a Corvette....It doesn't get uncomfortable after 10 minutes of driving, and you can use it as a commuter. And it cost 30K less. Would I buy a used first gen Viper for under 20K if it had under 100K miles on it? Absolutely. I would love a hotrod project that looks like the Viper and alreaddy has 430 HP
ALSO: We're starting to see, and are about to see cars that have similar performance #'s to the Viper, with more comfort/luxery, and utility, and for less than half the cost. This just helps prove my point that the Viper is a POS for the $$ And most of the customers that Dodge gets for the Viper, have been returning since the early first gens...
But as a car...it is a POS...sure it has a powerful engine...and looks like a snake on wheels...but the problems it has AS a car, far outweigh the positive things this vehicle has going for it, in the mind of the consumer...which is why they sell so few. It is basicly just a hotrod, and thats great that their selling that, but when I'm looking for a car, I want to be comfortable, and not needs extensive driving lessons in that car before I actually own it. Thats why I would have a hotrod in the garage, that only cost me less than 20K to make just as fast if not faster than a Viper...
And someone said something to the nature of "well if the Viper is a POS w/ a fast engine, well then the same should be said for the Corvette....Well I don't think so...You don't need any driving lessons when driving a Corvette....It doesn't get uncomfortable after 10 minutes of driving, and you can use it as a commuter. And it cost 30K less. Would I buy a used first gen Viper for under 20K if it had under 100K miles on it? Absolutely. I would love a hotrod project that looks like the Viper and alreaddy has 430 HP
ALSO: We're starting to see, and are about to see cars that have similar performance #'s to the Viper, with more comfort/luxery, and utility, and for less than half the cost. This just helps prove my point that the Viper is a POS for the $$ And most of the customers that Dodge gets for the Viper, have been returning since the early first gens...
I do not think anyone is arguing that Viper is the utlimate car for every driver. Its purpose is one. Not all people are looking for that purpose in a car.
Corvette isn't 430 HP / 4xx lb/ft car. Or 500+HP/500+ lb/ft. Hence it may not need such driving lessons as Viper does. At the same time, driving lessons, IMO, are a good way to boost image. BMW is doing that, Porsche is doing that, etc... I will say this, when I got my Z28 it took me a couple of months to learn how to handle the car. It was a little too much for me at the beginning, coming from a FWD econobox. I would like to see Corvette offer driving school for its owners.
Analogy: I am wondering if drivers who race open wheels complain about comfort or training they need to get. Exaggeration - yes. However, the argument still stands, as follows: this is a purpose-built car. It draws "customers" who are looking exactly for that.
Performance and price. The fact that you can build a hot rod with solid performance for XX thousand less is irrelevant. Are we getting the rice boy mentality? "I can buy this car for so much less, modify it and have it beat your car." I agree - I can buy WRX, which can be a fine utility vehicle, modify it and have it beat Corvette in straight line acceleration, or even on the track if enough is invested. It may or may not be cheaper than Corvette, but let's assume that it is. Using your line of reasoning, Corvette is a POS car.
GuionM: good constructive posts, as usual.
Last edited by muckz; 04-28-2003 at 12:01 AM.
04-28-2003, 12:00 AM
#21
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Originally posted by muckz
Nobody is talking about daily driver, for goodness sakes. You don't buy Carrera, Corvette, Viper, Ferrari, etc.. for grocery shopping, ski trips, camping, and construction supplies delivery.
Nobody is talking about daily driver, for goodness sakes. You don't buy Carrera, Corvette, Viper, Ferrari, etc.. for grocery shopping, ski trips, camping, and construction supplies delivery.
On the other hand I personally konw 2 people who drive Viper's daily. Thats right, 5 days a week they drive their Vipers to work and back. One drives a GTS coupe, the other (my dentist) drives a older early 90's RT/10. My dentist even picks up his daughter from elementary school in his car. These guys are enthuiests and bought the Vipers knowing what they were purchasing. I'm willing to bet though that even theyd agree a Porsche, Corvette or even Ferrari for that matter would be a much more civil car for everyday usage.
04-28-2003, 12:06 AM
#22
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Originally posted by bigsteve7
I partially beg to differ. None of these cars are Accords or Camrys but they can be driven daily. There are many people who buy Corvettes and Porsches and drive them daily. They drive them to work, take the a kid to soccer practice and on the way home stop and get groceries. If you only have on passenger I dont see where you are coming from. The cars both have nice interiors with many ammenities and features that make them comfortable and easy to use. Thats what I think a lot of the people speaking in this thread are saying that these cars have as an advantage over the Viper. One of the things that makes the Ferrari that you gave for an example such a wonderful car is that it can offer Viper performance and be even easier to live with day to day and offer more luxury than say a Vette or Porsche.
On the other hand I personally konw 2 people who drive Viper's daily. Thats right, 5 days a week they drive their Vipers to work and back. One drives a GTS coupe, the other (my dentist) drives a older early 90's RT/10. My dentist even picks up his daughter from elementary school in his car. These guys are enthuiests and bought the Vipers knowing what they were purchasing. I'm willing to bet though that even theyd agree a Porsche, Corvette or even Ferrari for that matter would be a much more civil car for everyday usage.
I partially beg to differ. None of these cars are Accords or Camrys but they can be driven daily. There are many people who buy Corvettes and Porsches and drive them daily. They drive them to work, take the a kid to soccer practice and on the way home stop and get groceries. If you only have on passenger I dont see where you are coming from. The cars both have nice interiors with many ammenities and features that make them comfortable and easy to use. Thats what I think a lot of the people speaking in this thread are saying that these cars have as an advantage over the Viper. One of the things that makes the Ferrari that you gave for an example such a wonderful car is that it can offer Viper performance and be even easier to live with day to day and offer more luxury than say a Vette or Porsche.
On the other hand I personally konw 2 people who drive Viper's daily. Thats right, 5 days a week they drive their Vipers to work and back. One drives a GTS coupe, the other (my dentist) drives a older early 90's RT/10. My dentist even picks up his daughter from elementary school in his car. These guys are enthuiests and bought the Vipers knowing what they were purchasing. I'm willing to bet though that even theyd agree a Porsche, Corvette or even Ferrari for that matter would be a much more civil car for everyday usage.
I think that the direction from which I'm coming is that personally I know Viper for what it is and I would not be looking for convenience and daily drivability (although it sufficiently offers both to me) when thinking of acquiring one. As GuionM said, if convenience and daily drivability were my main concern, than it is not the vehicle for me. Nonetheless, I do not see the need to call Viper POS simply because of that. People that do that really miss the purpose of that car.
<edit: I find I need to edit my posts and correct grammar and spelling. Maybe I should go to sleep now and talk about this tomorrow
>
Last edited by muckz; 04-28-2003 at 12:10 AM.
04-28-2003, 07:43 AM
#23
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Originally posted by guionM
Viper is America's only Supercar.
Viper is America's only Supercar.
Last edited by jrp4uc; 04-28-2003 at 07:45 AM.
04-28-2003, 08:14 AM
#24
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Originally posted by jrp4uc
Now wouldn't Shelby, Panoz, Zonda and likely a few others (including Ford) take offense to that?
Now wouldn't Shelby, Panoz, Zonda and likely a few others (including Ford) take offense to that?
(PS: Of course that'll change once the Ford GT comes out
)
04-28-2003, 08:27 AM
#25
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Originally posted by jrp4uc
Now wouldn't Shelby, Panoz, Zonda and likely a few others (including Ford) take offense to that?
Now wouldn't Shelby, Panoz, Zonda and likely a few others (including Ford) take offense to that?
Originally posted by guionM
Viper is America's only Supercar.
Viper is America's only Supercar.
0-60 under 4 seconds, top speed over 200mph...
Curb weight 2700 lbs...
No fancy turbos, SC's, or quad cams...
"The cam-in-block 7-litre motor generates 550 horsepower at 6400 rpm. Redline is 7000 rpm. The motor delivers 520 foot-pounds of torque at 4000 rpm."
"The S7 has “full tray” body sculpting underneath. With its extreme ground effects engineering, at 160 mph the car could be driven upside down and still stay attached to the road."
"Every Comfort for the High Performance Driver. As much care has been given to the creature comforts of the Saleen S7 as to its performance." Their attention to making the car comfortable and driveable is astounding.
Saleen S7
Photos
Specs
Not flaming you guionM - not at all. Just offering that there ARE other US-designed and US built Supercars that outperform the Viper's very credible stats. Granted, they typically cost more and are hand-built, but they DO exist.
I agree with you regarding the Viper - and I'll go on record as saying that I have liked them from the beginning. IMO, if you can't afford a $65K toy, the car is not for you - regardless of your driving ability or personal needs.
Proud
Last edited by ProudPony; 04-28-2003 at 08:31 AM.
04-28-2003, 08:38 AM
#26
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The interior heat problems are still present. That monster motor generates a lot of heat and, in an uncompromising spirit, DC limited the heat shielding/insulation in the name of weight saving performance.
04-28-2003, 09:39 AM
#27
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Originally posted by guionM
I didn't take that person's POS comment seriously because he plainly either had a chip on his shoulder regarding all Chrysler products, or simply didn't understand what Viper was all about.
I didn't take that person's POS comment seriously because he plainly either had a chip on his shoulder regarding all Chrysler products, or simply didn't understand what Viper was all about.
Excluding the new model, which I haven't seen much on, I still feel the old model is a POS. To me, it didn't seem like Dodge put very much engineering into it at all. They just slapped together a car and shoe horned in a huge v-10 to make sure it was fast. Its slowly improved over the years, but it's not nearly as balanced as the corvette when it comes to all around performance, not just blasting down a 1/4 mile track. Anyone can put a huge motor in a subpar car and have it hit 12's. I feel performance is more than 1/4 mile and 0-60 times
04-28-2003, 11:09 AM
#28
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Originally posted by slt
Excluding the new model, which I haven't seen much on, I still feel the old model is a POS. To me, it didn't seem like Dodge put very much engineering into it at all. They just slapped together a car and shoe horned in a huge v-10 to make sure it was fast. Its slowly improved over the years, but it's not nearly as balanced as the corvette when it comes to all around performance, not just blasting down a 1/4 mile track. Anyone can put a huge motor in a subpar car and have it hit 12's. I feel performance is more than 1/4 mile and 0-60 times
Excluding the new model, which I haven't seen much on, I still feel the old model is a POS. To me, it didn't seem like Dodge put very much engineering into it at all. They just slapped together a car and shoe horned in a huge v-10 to make sure it was fast. Its slowly improved over the years, but it's not nearly as balanced as the corvette when it comes to all around performance, not just blasting down a 1/4 mile track. Anyone can put a huge motor in a subpar car and have it hit 12's. I feel performance is more than 1/4 mile and 0-60 times
04-28-2003, 11:21 AM
#29
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since you brought up the S7, don't forge the Mosler MT900
Curb weight without fuel is 2200 lbs
powered by a LS6
Zero-to-60 mph 3.5 sec
Standing Quarter-Mile 12 sec @ 118 mph
Braking 70 mph to Zero 149 ft.
300-ft Skidpad 1.02 g.
Top Speed 200+ mph
Projected EPA Fuel Economy 19 mpg city
28 mph hwy
I think I've found my $150,000 grocery gettering!
Curb weight without fuel is 2200 lbs
powered by a LS6
Zero-to-60 mph 3.5 sec
Standing Quarter-Mile 12 sec @ 118 mph
Braking 70 mph to Zero 149 ft.
300-ft Skidpad 1.02 g.
Top Speed 200+ mph
Projected EPA Fuel Economy 19 mpg city
28 mph hwy
I think I've found my $150,000 grocery gettering!
04-28-2003, 12:08 PM
#30
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Originally posted by guionM
Perhaps if they didn't use engines from someone else.
Perhaps if they didn't use engines from someone else.