I agree with all of that... just making a point.

My mother-in-law, as well as several friends are teachers... from grade school to high school.

I respect teachers (in general) a great deal, but there are perks that come with it... also, I assume most people who went into it knew what the pay was like before hand. If not, shame on them for going into it blindly.

 

If you went into teaching without wanting to teach, you're a big problem I think. Teachers that dont care are the worst... Shame on them works.

 

Then that should go for other benefits as well; stock options, higher wages, comp-time etc...let's be fair?..
Give me an extra $10K per year + fringe, and I'll pay a larger portion, NO PROBLEM..
Ratio's are very important.
You just described EVERY company on the planet, they will only give what's the lowest you will "accept".

foxbat.... ....what can I say... you really need to work with some UAW workers on the line for a day.
I agree, teachers seem under-paid, and Govt intervention in schools has forced them to stop teaching CHILDREN, and ONLY teach CIRICULUM(sp?). I have 3 kids in grade school/JH, and if they don't learn it at home, they don't learn it, just fail. There is very POOR comunication between teachers and parents, even tho systems are in place to assist this. They are even pushing kids in JH towards BLUE-COLLAR tech jobs in middle and lower class areas. They are taught to conform, and avoid INDIVIDUAL thinking, and if they act their age they are labeled A.D.H.D. and given "low-dose-cocain" called "Ritalin" causing permenant brain damage to some degree, and unemployable to the US Armed Forces.(My Rant..)
And you have Principal's making $70K +/yr. doing PR and Parent /Teacher relations.(less than Janitors)
Unions are like Millitaries: irreplaceable when you need them, money pits when you don't; and as soon as you cut them or get rid of them, the s**t hits the fan!...

 

Greed? Maybe a little. Overpay? Yes, we might be a little too well paid but when you factor in all the possible injuries and working conditions, you'd change your mind. Last time we hired for a 3rd shift in Oshawa Ontario, We had something like 120 new hires quit because they couldn't do it!!!

Now, POOR Quality? Chronic Laziness and bad productivity? What have you been smoking????

About OUR quality, directly from GM:
http://email.gmcanada.com/corpdb/cac...3?OpenDocument

About OUR productivity, again directly from GM:

http://email.gmcanada.com/corpdb/cac...c?OpenDocument

Next time, do some research before posting such nonsense.

 

Here is some more info from the 2004 Harbour report about productivity (not just about Canada)

http://forums.mjmls.com/article-218.html

* GM has four of the top five most productive assembly plants in North America.
o Oshawa #1, Ontario, Canada, (Chevrolet Impala and Monte Carlo) was ranked No. 2 at 16.40 hours per vehicle.
o Oshawa #2, Ontario, Canada, (Buick Regal and Century, Pontiac Grand Prix) was ranked No. 3 at 17.03 hours per vehicle.
o Lansing M, Mich., (Chevrolet Malibu and Pontiac Grand Am) was ranked No. 4 at 17.96 hours per vehicle.
o Lansing C, Mich., (Pontiac Grand Am) was ranked No. 5 at 18.09 hours per vehicle.

 

That mentality is the problem right there. White collar gets the salary they do because they've achieved the education, knowledge, and skills to demand it. No offense, but do you think workers with a high school degree can demand the same wage as a mechanical engineer? Most engineers could do a UAW job, but not the other way around. Could many UAW workers become engineers, probably, but they didn't. Just being brutally honest.

Besides salary, the UAW is better off for benefits in many areas anyway. I knew a lot of UAW workers making way more than their white collar counterparts, and that's just looking at wages, not other compensations.

As far as teachers go... if any of you ever lived with one or had a teacher in the family, you would realize that teaching is the most under appreciated field. Low wages, long hours(including prep time, correcting, dealing with parents, meetings, conferences...) They probably average 40+ hours/week for 52 weeks even if you included the summer vacation.

Dan

 

See that is a problem in many people's thinking. Yes, working conditions were bad in jobs before unions helped get legislation passed that fixed alot of things such as child labor, shorter work weeks, Minimum wage, (etc). But, here is problem, all laws they helped get passed for the American Unionized workforce were put in place for ALL Americans, Union or Not. In many respects, they worked themselves out of a job. I am sorry, but I have to agree, they had thier time & place and did alot for American workers, but their time might have passed.

 

http://www.aft.org/salary/

Of course this is a crude example, but, someone making $40,000 year works 12 months, so they earn $40,000 / 12 = $3,333 per month. The teacher works 9 months and earns $29,564 / 9 = $3284.88 per month.

All things equal, I wouldn't say they are grossly underpaid, I would agree on them being under appreciated though .

FWIW: A friend named Stephen just got his bacholer's degree, and got a job at the highschool we graduated from. He will be making $33 something thousand... All things equal he was making more per month working than I did when I started out as a programmer And if you want to consider 40+ hour weeks, I promise I can go toe to toe with any teacher for hours worked

 

You are a prime example of those who just don't get it. Wake up! Teachers don't just work 8 hours a day for 9 months. It's more like 10+ hours/day. They are paid a SALARY so they don't get overtime pay. All those extra hours are just included in what they are explected to do. Take 50 hours per week for 9 months and it's almost the same as 40 hours/weeks for 12 months.

And in the end, they only make $33,000/year. Regardless of having the summer off, do you think that's an appropriate wage for a teacher with a 4 year+ degree that works 10 hours a day, especially with how much influence and responsibility they have with our children?

I have over 10 teachers in my extended family and the 10 hours/day is pretty dang accurate.

Dan

 

Dan, do you own a home? How much do you think is a fair wage for teachers? 50,000? $60,000? So lets jack up your property taxes 25-50% to pay for a big raise across the board. Like I said, we don't pay for jobs based on moral value of the job, it is based on economics. That's how it IS, regardless of how it should be. Deal with it.

And like was said above, if you went in to teaching thinking it was a way to make it rich then you got in for the wrong reasons. There are rewards far greater than monetary, because if teaching was really the raw deal you make it out to be we'd have a massive shortage. Instead teachers are everywhere, good and bad.

 

There have been changes to property taxes so that they aren't focused so heavily on paying for education. Yes, I own a home. I don't feel that property taxes are a fair way to fund schools by the way, especially for those who pay for their children to go to private schools. They pay double for their childs education. If education was purely based on property taxes, then yes, I would pay a higher property tax so that our school systems get the money they need.

Since you asked, IMO teachers should be making around $40K-45k starting out, but that's in my area of the country. A fair wage for the amount of education and responsibility that they have. Many teachers spend more time with peoples children than the parents do, and have a large affect on our society.

It's people who don't want to fund our school systems that are making it so hard to get good people into the area of teaching. It's not all about the money, but when you are looking at job choices and look at teaching, even if you would love to be a teacher, the low pay turns many away unfortunately. I'm not saying teachers should be rich, just paid fairly.

I never said teaching is a raw deal. Teaching can be very rewarding, just like any other job, but I feel, as do many others, that teachers are unappreciated and underpayed. You sound like you are not one of them, boiling it down to how much you have to pay in property taxes.

Sorry to take this thread so far off topic. This is something that I am opinionated about obviously, so I tend to speak openly about my thoughts on the subject. I'm not intending to bash anyone personally, but instead working towards changing the mindset of many in our country.

Dan

 

Yes, I am Salary, I understand very well what it means to put in some hours. I work a 45 hour minimum week. Everything else beyond 45 hours is charity, plus I carry a pager every couple of weeks. I understand what its like to work 50 ~ 60 hour weeks.

Considering total compensation (Salary, Holidays, Retirement, Heath Care, etc) vs. hours worked, I don't think they have it that bad. If you still believe so, please explain.

 

Maybe I came off too strong. I just wanted to say that you can't consider teaching an 8 hour/day job, so if you try to compare it to other professions, you need to keep that in mind. Also, a good portion of that summer vacation is spent preparing for the next school year, and in teacher meetings in the late summer.

Let me say, that I don't think teachers are being tortured at their jobs, only that they are under appreciated and compensated less than they should be. (in my opinion). Almost any other full time job also has health care, retirement benefits, and holidays/vacations so that is almost a mute point. It boils down to wages, and the teachers are undercompensated, which I discussed earlier.

I'm also salary btw.

Dan

 

the uaw is well known for all the items i've already mentioned verified by independent assesments and cost/factor studies in economics. and for your links from gm, those represent only ONE plant. and also, i don't see the american unions anywhere in the rankings. finally, i could give a rats azz about the CAW, their unyeilding labor contracts with gm is a huge part of the reason we have no fbody.