The logic is that I would no longer be working for asshats.

You would honestly take a paycut at your current job? If so, management's going to show you no respect, and your next assignment is going to be "pissboy". This is Management 101.

Regardless of how the Union got their fat salaries, if they give it up, there's no more union. That's not to say they can't sell out the next generation or take buyouts, because like I said, Delphi is not really a long-term option anyway you look at it. I just hope those UAW guys realized that it was good money while it lasted and saved up so that they can move to warmer economy.

 

Supply and demand (of labor, in this case).

 

Yep, basic economics. If the paycut is too much for you, then quit and go somewhere else. Thats how the rest of america works. You cant just hold the company hostage.

 

And that's why burger flippers don't make much more than minimum wage

 

They can always demand more money later when the company in is the position to be able to provide it. No sense in demanding more money when it will drive the company your worker for out of business.

Taking a paycut at my current job doesn't even relate to this. The company I work for is not in trouble finicially. If I was them, I would rather take the paycut then strike for who knows how long, or worse lose your jobs all together. 34k a year is a lot better then 0.

 

The company has enough money to pay out millions in bonuses to management, but not enough to pay its workers a decent living. Sorry, but low $30's when you have a wife and 2-3 kids is pushing the poverty line. If workers wouldnt be worrying about their jobs, because the company can afford to pay $12-16 an hour, they'd be worrying about the bank forclosing on their houses.

The rest of America? What part would that be? I see unions everywhere in America...

 

Hmmm.

So illegal immigration is good for America?

$20 per hour after 20 years?!

If anyone asks me if someone putting car harnesses together everyday should be getting more than a rookie Police officer (between $40-55,000+ per year depending on city), then I'd say of course not. Especially if the benefits equal what exists in the military (free medical coverage for the family and college help for the young ones). But I feel that at $16 per hour ($33,000 per year) for someone starting in a factory job is a fair wage. On the same note, someone who's given 20-30 years to the job, and who has stuck with the company thick and thin (and typically would have gotten raises and promotions over the years) SHOULD be well compensated.

However, attempting to force a wage ceiling of $12.50 per hour across the board for union labor at a plant that requires any real training down someone's throat is something only an assclown would propose. That's just $26,000 per year. The people checking baggage at the airport get $27,000. A McDonalds manager starts at $30K. A person working Wal Mart full time for a year with scheduled raises without a diploma can make 26K per year. With BAH (housing allowence) a military recruit makes about 26K per year.... and THAT'S barely enough for a guy with a wife and a kid.

Yet, some retard at Delphi who just gave execs (of a bankrupt company I might add) $60,000,000 in bonuses, lays a "take it or leave it" proposal to their union workers to accept $12.50 per hour, and tells General Motors if workers get more than that, then GM's going to be forced into paying for it is just the most mindblowing thing I've ever heard in corperate history.



Look at it this way:

You're making $30+ per hour, and have been with the company for 10 years. Your company is going into bankruptcy. Maybe you like the company, the community where you live, have a kid going through school, and through it all knows that General Motors as your biggest customer butters your bread, and you should take care of them.

Now we have some assclown who has a history of being a wannabe union buster come in and 1st dictate that you WILL accept $12.50 an hour (with major cuts health coverage and retirement) and is telling you and GM IF you get any more than that, then GM's bankrolling it.

You might be willing to take a cut to save the company. You might be willing to take a bigger cut if you saw management was serious about saving the company (like Bill Ford and Rick Wagoner showed by accepting pay cuts, being honest with the union, and by actually demostrataing that they not only would eliminate positions they don't need, but showing a willingness to keep jobs in the US and Canada where they can). Not the case with Delphi.

Friend, if you know you can deliver mail, be a UPS driver, greet people at Wal Mart, or clean bathroom stalls for over $30,000 per year with better benefits than is being proposed, you're going to stand up to these bozos because just about any alternative is better.

It's plain as day what Delphi is doing. GM even sees it and is stockpiling parts (GM CEO Wagoner even publicly chided Delphi management on "Meet The Press"). Delphi made an offer to union members that's worse to the individual than the alternatives (they can get jobs with better pay and/or benefits elsewhere). They are making it a take it or leave it proposition, virturally making a strike mandatory. They are giving all the top people bonuses. They are telling their by far biggest customer (GM) in so many words: "if you are worried about your survival then you negotiate with the workers and you pay them more or offer buyout packages, because we aren't.... even though it's our company".

Delphi management is attempting to close down most all North America operations, essentially moving jobs overseas. Management is also making sure they get PAID before things crash, as they certainly will if things continue as their going (about 1 in 8 jobs is influenced directly by the auto industry).



Is simply too easy to bash the union. The union, once it got good working conditions, and fought off attempts to make profits look better by cutting wages and benefits started doing absolutely stupid stuff to keep themselves relevent. I've freely bashed them over the years because they deserve it.

But this one time, in this one instance, it's not them. They know what's at stake. They have shown a stunning willingness to accept benefit cuts, a mindblowing willingness to have their ranks cut by massive numbers at both GM and Ford (despite having only a fraction of the members it had just 20 years ago), and have renounced their adversarial positions in negotiations with US automakers and pull with them to make our companies competitive.

Delphi is the odd man out in all this. Don't you wonder why?

 

Incorrect. Americans have the right to unionize and strike. And since no American would work for the Chinese wage that Delphi wants to pay, it would be very wise for Delphi employees to make the most of their rights.

Also, very well said guionM.

 

I suppose that depends on your point of view / social status

I agree.

 

True, I come from a business/sales environment and see people get their ***** cut off all the time for downsizing, lack of production, change in business model, ect. Those people suck it up and move on. I have a hard time sympathizing with these union guys and I really don't buy into this socialistic nonesence that its the company's responsibility to provide you a high enough salary to support your family.

That said, the Delphi soap opera that Guy laid out is pretty wild. Thats just a crappy situation all around.

 

Excellent points Guy.

I work for a public agency in the SF Bay Area. We have some of the best benefits in the country. Most of our employees are protected by various unions. Yet we can't find anyone that wants to work for us as an electrician for $22.60 per hour (entry level). The job has been open for going on 5 years and no one wants to take it because its not enough money.

Granted this is California, and the cost of living is much more expensive, but I don't know anywhere in the country where someone with a family could afford to live off of $12.50 an hour.

 

Well, that and the fact that a lot of these hourly jobs are hard work. I can tell you that I wouldn't want to shoot screws into parts for 8 hours straight with only two short breaks and a lunch. I used to be an engineer with the goal of making line workers all have ZERO idle time. I was pretty good, so I came damn close in most cases. They didn't like it too much, but damn were they hustling. All Day.

 

We need to get together sometime (I'm also in the bay area).

Back to unions, our area is expensive to live. Buy even back in my home town of Pittsburgh Pa, $12.50 per hour isn't a job an adult highschool graduate would willingly take.

I really don't know where people get the idea that's money. If the minimum wage kept up with inflation over the past 20 years and rose with all other wages, even that would be pushing 15 an hour.

 

Usually, people want everyelse else to work for peanuts, as long as they themselves are still paid "a reasonable wage".

Something to keep in mind here is Delphi's first two contract proposals to the union, which were laughable. Cutting wages to $9.50/hr with health care deductables of several thousand dollars was nothing more than an attempt to **** off the union. Well, "Steve" sure got what he wanted.

 

Plenty of people will work for $12.50 per hour. My current company which produces medical products pays less to start then that, and our products will end up in your body one day. It comes down to the fact it is nothing more then basic assembly and doesn't require a lot of skill. If you want more money go to college and earn it. The unions have set up a falsehood for many of those workers and now it is getting adjusted to where it should have been.

I could maybe see a starting salary of $14/hr with good benefits and maybe topping out at 45-50k in today's dollars. Our top technicans at our company only hit 60k which requires more then assembly line work. Most engineers top out around 80k-90k.

I do think that managment as well should take a large pay cut. I also think management pay in general is out of line too. That has to come down to the stockholders demanding that the execs pay be reduced.