guyomatic

Has anyone seen the C5 Covette in the LeMans racing series? It's a V10 and it lead in points. It's ahead of the Viper. I hope this could be a thought by GM to put this engine in the next gen Vette. They should, because the next Viper has 500HP and even the old Viper still bit*% slaps the newest year Z06.

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96 Z, T-tops,M6,K&N FIPK,HPP+,160*,Borla Cat-back,52mm BBK TB, TB by-pass,Edelbrock shorty headers,Granatelli MAF,Accel Extreme wires,NGK TR55's,FireBall Coil
94 Taurus SHO(For sale in Toronto)
92 ZX-7

Audio:
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Burmite

The engine inside of the C5R in LeMans is a 7 liter LS1 block. Its a bored and stroked Katech block with a 4 inch stroke and 4.125 inch bore. It has special 11* heads for a higher compression ratio and is built to run at high rpm's. It is still a V8. Get the facts straight. Only the Viper has a V10. GM running a V10 would violate LeMans rules since Chevy never made 50 V10 Vettes.

Chuck!

The HP roof saved GM from going insane. It'd be nice to see Camaros come out of the factory with 400 rwhp, but if they came with 400 hp, people would want 425... then 450, where does it stop? Ford has to top 390 hp now, which wont be overly difficult for them in the next few years, but what about when people want 490 hp?

btw, you can get the 11 degree cylinder head now from GM pn 12480005 along with the C5R block pn 12480030

DJCobol

Syclone dammit! With an S!

And marketing is the worst thing that hurts GM. How many F-bof commercials do you ever remember seeing in the last 5 years? 2? Maybe 3? There you go!

Z284ever

I'm not so sure that lots of marketing would have really saved the F-body.....unless they would have spent marketing dollars on advertising the LS1. That would only have appealed to a narrow audience though.

Ford doesn't market the Mustang much in the conventional sense (like TV and print ads)....but they have done a good job of "imaging" it. The "Mustang" name means something...even to the layperson consumer (and really means something to the Ford enthusiast). Mustang's specific models also create excitement with the consumer.

IMO...the "imaging" ball was dropped big time with the Camaro.....all the marketing in the world won't make up for that.

DJCobol

To me, imaging and marketing are one in the same. Both deal with getting the car out there. Make people want to buy one. You are right, Mustangs have a great public image. Nowdays, they dont really need a whole lot of advertising. But I still see commercials though.

The Camaro/Firebird had virtually no public image. Marketing could have helped that. Where are the signs? The TV ads? The magazine spots? I'll tell you: They are nowhere to be found.

GM wants to write the demise off to poor sales. Well, what fixes poor sales? A redesign? Maybe. Whats the best thing though? MARKETING! You could sell a shoebox full of dog crap to people if you had a good enough marketing plan.

guionM

Ok, ok, Syclone

I agree GM could have done more to market Camaro. Even if they didn't want to spring for it, at the very least it should have occasionally been in the background of commercials of their other cars, thereby creating the same "mystique" the Mustang has at Ford.


In a related area, this article came from thecarconnection today. I've suspected that the whole Camaro phaseout was purposely done due to CAW issues more than anything (though I don't suspect they have any special claim to the name Camaro ).

"CAW, GM TALKS TURN CHILLY
The mood in contract talks between the Canadian Auto Workers and General Motors has turned decidedly chilly after the union rejected the company's first offer. Buzz Hargrove, the president of the CAW, called the offer set out by GM negotiators the worst he has ever seen in the 23 years he has participated in negotiations with the Big Three. "I've come to the conclusion that this Friday the 13th might be a bad omen for General Motors," said Hargrove, who said the union would not bother with making any kind of counteroffer and would wait for GM to submit a new offer that could get the talks moving — otherwise a strike was a real possibility, Hargrove said. The blunt strike threat was a complete turnabout from the day before, when Hargrove had appeared at a joint press conference with Michael G. Grimaldi, the president of GM of Canada, and predicted a peaceful settlement. "All the optimism is out the window. I think this is the worst first offer we have ever received, both in terms of its contents and direction," said Hargrove, who has a long history of blunt talk. Officials from GM of Canada, meanwhile, noted there was still plenty of time for the company and the union to reach agreement and that talks were continuing."

Z284ever

I'm no marketing guy, (nor have I played one on TV)...but I've worked with dept. loads of them and have on occasion hired some .....so I've had the opportunity to form my own ideas.

To me marketing is....."Buy our outdated Cavalier...$1,000 rebates and 0% financing.....offer ends soon!!!!!"


Imaging is what Ford has done for the Mustang.

This includes clearly delineated performance models ,( allof which, BTW, are desirable in their own way) that excite consumers and enthusiasts (look at how much "Mustang talk" we've had on this Camaro forum).
In contrast, the Camaro program created a counter productive decrease in enthusiasm with their line-up in this regard. WERM has been especially eloquent in describing this condition.


And... Bill Ford himself appears on TV ads boosting the Mustang's image with his own words of praise for Mustang and it's heritage.....can you imagine that!!

Can you imagine Bob Lutz going on national TV and saying "If I could have only one car it would be a Camaro...and since Chevy has such a rich motorsport heritage...make it a Z/28!"

......NOT A CHANCE OF THAT EVER HAPPENING!


The way I see it ...this is just one reason why Mustang lives and Camaro is on hiatus.

guionM

You bring up an excellent point Z. Bill Ford, CEO goes on TV with words of praise for it's heritage & what it represents, yet what we got (actual quote here) were words to the effect that "advertising is the problem with Camaro. Everyone knows what a Camaro is anyway".

Sometimes telling others to "have faith" isn't quite enough.

Cobraeater

I don't think anybody uses the words heritage and Camaro together anymore. Everybody wants to run out and buy a Mustang because of it's long heritage while the Camaro and Firebird were forgotten by the public.

I can see Bob Lutz saying those things about a Corvette, but not a Camaro.

I don't know what's going to happen in a few years, but it doesn't look good for a Camaro.

If there was any desire or enthuiasm for the Camaro at GM wouldn't we hear something instead of all this cloak and dagger bulls**t.

I was always going to buy GM I said 10 years ago, but now that loyalty dies with the Camaro.

F*** GM!!

Z284ever

Sadly true .

But the really sad part is that Camaro has an unusually rich heritage, that has been unfortunately squandered like sea pay by a drunken sailor on shore leave.

What a pity! Now Camaro has been sentenced to GM purgatory.

Maybe a short (repeat...short) hiatus for Camaro may end up being the best thing for it. Maybe a clean break for now, with a later re-introduction to it's actual heritage and compelling history may end up being a good thing.

Z28Wilson

Haha yeah, but I'm not sure Bill sells a ton of cars just by reading a script in a commercial. He doesn't even sound like he knows what he's talking about, or it sounds so contrived it's laughable. My two favorite spots are:

"...Mustang with a throaty V8 and a great sound system."

"Low end torque is what's important. We have great low-end torque" (truck commercial) Yeah you rock Bill. Do you even know what torque is? I swear everytime he says it I laugh out loud.

I don't think we need Bob Lutz to counter with his own ads, just a nice, well thought out commercial displaying the Camaro heritage. Words shouldn't even be necessary. Hold the sap please.

guionM

The commercial may sound fake, but he is widely known to be solidly behind and committed to the Mustang & it's future (and to some extent, the Mercury division as well).

At GM, do we have that same level commitment?

Chuck!

Another thing the Mustang has going for it is that it's Fords top sports/muscle/pony car. GM treated the Fbody like a bastard child of the Vette, where as the Mustang doesnt have to compete with anything within Ford.

All the third party ads with Fords in them (like BFG, Blisten etc ads) get Cobras and all the 3rd party GM ads get Vettes. That's just more free advertisment for the Mustang. While Ford doesnt overly adverstise the Stang, a lot of other copanies do it for them.

slverbullet

HA HA, but dont think we wont wait till theyre a couple years old and then buy them!!!