It’s amazing how you can quote what I say and have no apparent comprehension of it.

My comment said nothing about what was “good” for GM. The comment was pointing out the very small benefit to the U.S. economy when an imported vehicle is sold here compared to the much more significant benefit to the U.S. when a vehicle is MADE here.

Is it a benefit to GM when it sells a car in the U.S. (regardless of where the car was built)? Of course it is. Is there a benefit to the U.S. economy when a vehicle is sold in the U.S. regardless of where it’s made? Of course there is. I didn’t say otherwise.

However, the benefit to the U.S. of goods many anywhere outside of the U.S. (Australian or otherwise) and sold here is nothing compared to the benefit to the U.S. economy of goods made in the U.S.

If you refuse to see the truth of my statement then I’ll just give your comments and opinions the attention they deserve; if you really can’t understand that concept then you have my pity.

 

I did say that that, in a nutshell. and not missing the point:
If they go to Canada or Mexico they dont deal with the unions (CAW yea but not the UAW). That is one reason why. They are sidestepping the unions cus they are that messed up in the logic. unions cut off the nose to spite the face mentality. I dont think you would see all this shipping jobs and closing plants if the unions figured it out. They got Ford and GM by the ***** cus even if they dont work they still get paid..WTF?? Thats messed up. So only thing to do is send it outside the U.S. just to compete.

Toyota like I said I would not say as much as I am but if they stepped in and took over these factories that lay dormant then I would give them props. But to do what they are doing they are doing not to help us in the least bit. Just profiting from our stupidity.

And I will say it here mark my words: there will be a story or something that will come out in the next year or two. There will be a report on how these numbers are padded in some way or form to make them look huge (almost 90% gain in the Prius??) Either by what DCX was doing. Forcing the cars down the dealers throats and toyota able to absorb this amount just by sheer sales volume. or some finagaling of the numbers. Trust me. At this rate the jump in numbers. Its almost impossible to do without seeing the huge reflection in the market. Yet its about the same. And truthfully I just dont see it yet. So I am going with someone trying a tactic of marketing that will be just another weapon in the arsenal of thier takeover of this country.

and by the way. Why say assembled in the U.S. and not Made in the U.S.A.??

 

Guess I missed that statement so no, you got that point.

As to Toyota or some other transplant taking over old plants; they may "look" good but it would be a very bad business decision otherwise...one the problems that GM and Ford and Chrysler face, among many, is the age of their plants and their inefficiencies and to bring them up to date would be a huge expense; much less expensive to simply build new plants somewhere especially when communities are willing to give incentives to get them to bring jobs to a new area...it's not all that dissimilar to an NFL team choosing to move to a new city.

 

yea till the players (the union) step in and dont want you to move or they dont play..
What I am wondering is who is hampering or why is it that these wonderful elected officials blubbering on about Toyota and such. Why them? why not GM or Ford??? Is it what Toyota will do for the communities?? Something that GM or Ford cant offer?? again the whole thing about the unions get in the way. new plant in southern U.S. means union labor prices.
Kinda funny how it goes all back to one problem that will not fix itself..Unions.
It just baffles me that, and i hope you can see it Robert. These detroit plants are shut down for many reasons, unions one, dated facility and the last thing sales. Now these places have cities and communities tied up into them and the thousands of jobs lost at the factories. There are countless hundreds of thousands of jobs lost that surround these factories in the town and cities around it. From corperations that worked with the automakers to shopping plazas and chain stores to the corner coffee house that went under since the factory closed. All of these indirect economical resources that were kept alive by the plant.Turning a thriving city of millions to a deserted boarded up slum with many not having a job. Where does this help our economy? When millions lose thier jobs.
You go down south. Toyota goes to a new town that they picked out with some help of the local goverment official throwing incetives after incentices to come build there. Towns that by all rights have a good economy. Have lived like this for many generations not needing an automaker to make a better community. They give these new cities almost 400K jobs. Jobs that are good for that community and will make a town a thriving city in a few years doing what that old city in Detroit had. Sure it sounds good for the southerners and it is good for them, but what good does it for the rest of the country up north?
Sure its not Toyotas fault. They are doing what they should but come on. They are doing this in such a fasion that it does look helpful to everyone but it is not. The unions are to blame for most and then it goes a long list of to blames from there, along with an un fair playing feild. There has to be something there for all these articles to have come forth in the last few months. thats why GM and Ford build out of the country. They cannot compete with the "new" so they build their "new" outside. Its almost like a castle thats been beseiged and the ruler driven out and the king ins now looking at his own castle from the outside walls while the invader is sitting in his throne room. That is what these import companies are doing throwing a wedge into an economy that cannot afford this kinda split. But you know what. There not the ones that will lose out. If this "kingdom" falls apart. You think they will be in dire straghts?? Nope. they pile back on thier boats and take the spoils of war home, back to Japan. Can our U.S. automakers do that? Nope. this is where people buying import cars thinking it does not hurt. Well go talk to those people in detroit that have no jobs. Its not just the auto industry either, hell look at the outsourcing the call centers did. Who is "Jim" and why does he sound like hes in India?? He is. This olive branch of peace is not what they bring. I can tell you that. you should know that. It is as you say the only thing they care about (not the only thing but thats another argument) they care about capitol over anything else. And doing a good job of milk everything about this country in doing so.
In many of Americas families Toyota is as American ans Apple Pie.
That is a frightning thing to realize. and a sad one to boot.

 

Why do you believe that?
Toyota pays comparable wages...sometimes more!
Toyota's medical coverage, in most cases is better...less co-pays, better coverage.(I know Honda's is as well, they employ people I talk to everyday)
Maybe that's b/c of their fear of Unionization..
Maybe 15-20 years ago, but now???....it reminds me of the "All Domestic cars are crap" stereotype...which may have been earned in the past, but continues to haunt them.

 

...

 

I live in central Ohio where there is a large presence by Honda. They do pay their employees a good wage (although from what I hear it is significantly less than the UAW), but their workforce is only about 20% direct employees (making the good wages) and 80% are long term temporaries working for $11-12/ hour. The vast majority of suppliers are also Japanese transplant companies like Yusa, Tigerpoly, Showa, etc. paying $8.50-10/hr.

I have no direct knowledge of how Toyota or Nissan plants or suppliers operate, but I would be suspicious of any numbers without looking deeper into what they count as "employees" and "domestic suppliers".

 

I don't really want to turn this into a discussion on the pros/cons of unions but at the risk of oversimplication, I'll give you a couple of reasons.

1. Unions impede the ability of management to make the best decisions for the company and to react quickly to a changing business environment.
While GM and Ford and Chrysler’s hands are tied up by a union contract and the three domestics are talking with the union negotiators about what to do about the way the auto market is today; Nissan and Toyota and Honda and the rest that are non-unionized have already responded and moved onto the next problem.

In other words, Unions, by their very nature, add inefficiency to the equation.


2 Unions often serve to protect lazy, incompetent employees from termination and likewise, will often delay or stop advancements that would reduce labor costs (cause people to loose jobs or get moved elsewhere).

The moment you remove the consequences of being a bad employee or doing a bad job, you tend to start getting bad results out of people…while it may seem a bit archaic in this “enlightened age”; there is something be said for the fear of being fired as a motivator to keep doing a good job.

Likewise, one of the things that has kept GM/Ford/Chrysler from modernizing their plants and being able to compete on the “level playing field” everyone says they want, are the unions who only look at modernization as meaning less union dues all while Toyota and Nissan and Honda build new, modern, efficient plants.

 

I’m a fellow buckeye; I did two of my degrees at Franklin University; moved to Tennessee from Westerville (Columbus for you non-Ohio people) and grew up near Washington Court House. I well remember when Honda came to Marysville and over the years have known several people who work/worked there. I’m also very familiar with Yusa as their Washington Court House plant is only about seven miles from my parents home and know (and have done taxes for) a number of employees there.

From my experience; while there are Japanese citizens working there, the vast majority of employees (temp and full-time) were Americans (as opposed to what mzgp5x suggested earlier).

I can’t speak to their ratio of employees/temps but I would not say their wages are not at all out of line based on the work they are doing and COL of where they live. Let’s also keep in mind that no one is forcing temp work on people…temps choose to be temps…I worked as an IC for several years here and turned down several full-time jobs before choosing to work for my current employer…I never felt taken advantage of and I made a good income as a temp.

The use of temps is hardly new nor is it confined to the auto industry – many businesses today are using more and more temps, where possible…we may regret that but I suspect it’s just another step away from the traditional “go to work for the local factory for 30 years and then retire” framework our fathers and grandfathers knew and lived by. The auto industry is probably the last business that has still held onto the model; for most businesses and most workers in this country; that model has been dead for many years now.

I can understand how someone might not think of a Yusa part as "domestic" but the term isn’t ambiguous…if a part is made in the U.S. it’s “domestic” content; if it’s imported then it isn’t; regardless of the company name over the door. But the transplants hardly get all their parts from suppliers they have “brought over”…I’ve worked for Dana corporation as well as Kiser Aluminum; I saw and tracked the parts they both those companies were manufacturing and selling to Ford and Nissan and Honda and GM and the rest…Yusa and the like are hardly the only suppliers transplants rely on.

 

OK... example... Japanese glass Co. "Central Glass". All of the floor machinery and people were Japanese. Toyota brought them over with them. The Japanese form strong ties with their suppliers from Japan. Not saying ther's anything wrong with that, but, they could go to PPG or Guardian Glass (why not???). These US companies were not considered by Japanese. The same for metal stamping suppliers "Ogiahra", wire harness assemblies, air bag manufacturers... etc.

If the US builds so much junk (the current prevailing US consumer thinking), why is our military equipment so good???

As for old plants, They can be fitted with new automation assembly line equipment to work under 1 roof. Comes down to how you arrage material and work flow around Body/ Paint/ and GA production areas, &, future expansion planning.

example... The new American plant model uses three (3) seperate buildings... Body/ Paint/ GA. ie... LGR plant.

I do believe the Union is far more costly for the domestic AutoMkt (I know as an abused salary employee). Of course, let's not forget, that many of todays domestic cost problems were ideas/ agreements by Mgt and Union.

As far as Detroit, the there are massive amounts of good people out of work. White and blue collar. The Lib Michigan state government solution is to raise tax on services now. It's time people in the US consider giving back to their US citizen-neighbors. I don't see the Japanese helping with Iraq.
(97SS 383 D1) American iron, and fast!!!

 

Well if 46% are from Japan
<45% were from the USA
and 9%+ were from other countries, by my math that would mean most are coming from Japan.

 

If you won't believe me or the Wall Street Journal or Autodata.com then I can't help you. Of the 100% of Toyota vehicles sold in the U.S. in 2006; 54% of them were built in the U.S. - this should not be a difficult concept to grasp.

54% is low compared to the ratio from prior years because a lot of the double-digit increases Toyota's sales last year were for models not made in the U.S.

 

In very broad terms and understanding it would seem possible that some so called and labeled "domestic suppliers" ie "domestic content" could source from suppliers that are Japanese owned and operated correct?

 

I don't have specifics in front of me but as I understand how "part content" is established by a manufacturer for the window sticker statement; the key is where the part(s) were actually manufactured; if they are made in the U.S. then they are "domestic"; ownership of the company that physically makes and/or sells the part is not a consideration; where the part was physically made, by whoever made it is.

in other words, if Dana Corporation, for example, went to India to source a part and then sold it as a Dana part, it would not count toward the domestic part content calculation.

 

I wonder what the $$$ break down is. I know a lot of the more expensive vehicles are built in Japan.