Toyota earns twice as much as GM and Ford, COMBINED!
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From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by BigDarknFast
I'm growing a little tired of all this wide-eyed fawning over the Toyota juggernaut. They're not supermen. GM has steadily closed the quality gap with them to the point now it's nearly a statistical dead heat. Toyota's cars are numbingly boring and bland (at least Nissan has had the courage to come out with some bold styling like on the 350Z and Maxima!). Sure on paper - Toyota is making a good profit. So what? Where's their Avalanche, CTS-V, Corvette Z06 and Hummer H2? They don't even have a car which can compete with my Grand Prix CompG, feature for feature. They offer no HUD, no Night Vision, no midgated trucks (GM has TWO models now with that), no affordable supercar like the Z06. If you're 'Jennifer' Toyota is just the car for you.
I'm growing a little tired of all this wide-eyed fawning over the Toyota juggernaut. They're not supermen. GM has steadily closed the quality gap with them to the point now it's nearly a statistical dead heat. Toyota's cars are numbingly boring and bland (at least Nissan has had the courage to come out with some bold styling like on the 350Z and Maxima!). Sure on paper - Toyota is making a good profit. So what? Where's their Avalanche, CTS-V, Corvette Z06 and Hummer H2? They don't even have a car which can compete with my Grand Prix CompG, feature for feature. They offer no HUD, no Night Vision, no midgated trucks (GM has TWO models now with that), no affordable supercar like the Z06. If you're 'Jennifer' Toyota is just the car for you.
Toyota is POUNDING the automotive world, and it's a smart move IMO, because the auto industry is THE powerhouse industry of the world - just look at Detroit and the northeast US to see that. Toyota is concentrating on controlling the market of the biggest driver in industry, and the largest employment sector in the world.
The scary thing is, they are doing it in such a non-chalant, quiet, almost secret way so nobody raises any flags about it - it just doesn't sound anybodies' alarms. Even I admit that there's no harm in Toyota being the largest producer/earner in the auto world... it's what happens after they get there that matters. How many more "Oldsmobile's" will cease to exist? Eagle? Others? What if (I know, big stretch, but it COULD happen) Chevy has to go? or Lincoln? or Ford? or GMC? The truth is, once they dominate the market, other companies will get squeezed out. Look at Eckerds vs. CVS. Look at NBC consumed by Microsoft. ESPN... TNT... US Airways... Banks... heck all areas of business. D@mn, look what Wal-Mart has done to local business owners nation wide! Companies on a huge growth run gobble-up or eliminate competition - and BigDarknFast, like it or not, you and I are in the same boat, in that WE BOTH DON'T CARE FOR TOYOTA'S PRODUCT! WE ARE LOYAL TO THE COMPETITION(of Toyota)!
That is why we need to give a chit, and be aware that all the "Jennifers" out there are unintentionally ruining the landscape of American Car Manufacturers... inch-by-inch, dollar-by-dollar, with every Toyota they "innocently" buy.
But if you ask them, hey, they got a great "value" in their car! And that's all that matters...right.
BTW - inside the walls of the industry, "Toyota" actually is "Superman". My company was started in 1882, and employs 35,000 globally making $9-billion in sales - as American as it gets, yet every time I turn around I am hit with a Toyota Program that we need to implement in our plants. We spend thousands to send our plant engineers to Toyota plants and have them take courses in 6-sig and Lean Manufacturing at Toyota training schools. I realize that Joe Q Public doesn't see this on a daily basis, but they really are QUITE the industrial innovators now... sadly.
Last edited by ProudPony; May 21, 2004 at 07:38 AM.
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From: Memphis
I'm not sure I understand people who say that they cut costs by sharing parts all across the board.
First of all, almost every manufacturer does this. Heck... GM takes it to the next level by having 7 different brands (now 6 since olds is pretty much gone) which produce at least some vehicles that could be darn near considered 'twins'.
Whereas Toyota just has two brands. A standard brand and a luxury brand. All of the Lexus SUVs have Toyota SUV counterparts (although the opposite is not true). One of the Lexus cars has a Toyota car counterpart. But they still do a good job of seperating the ES330 from the Camry, especially in terms of the interior design and to a certain extent the drivetrain.
Second of all... after all of the research and messing around I've done with my car and with the factory manuals and parts lists with my car, the only components I've found that are shared between my car and any Toyota vehicle is the cruise control, the windshield wiper stalks, and the oil filter... and even the oil filter is slightly different part number and slightly different inside if you take it apart... but it's still cross-compatible with the Supra and Tundra V8 oil filters.
Lastly, if you are referencing the fact that Toyota uses the Camry platform for the Avalon (stretched camry chassis), the Sienna (very stretched and reinforced camry chassis), the ES330 (nearly identical in terms of chassis), the Highlander, and the RX330... that is definitely true and it probably saves them a lot of money. But have you noticed other companies doing this as well? GM hasn't started doing it until just recently with their Malibu platform that they've shared out to some other Chevy models, Cadillac models, the Saab 9-3, and maybe more... I'm not sure beyond that.
Honda uses the Accord platform for the MDX SUV and their Passport minivan as well.
And lastly you've got Nissan who has turned their profit model around 180 degrees by developing their FMV platform/chassis which can be easily stretched and reinforced in both directions with little to no additional cost in research and development or manufacturing techniques... it's in use with the Altima, the Maxima, the Murano, the new Quest, the 350Z, the G35, the FX, and so on.
Platform sharing is really the way of the future IMO.
First of all, almost every manufacturer does this. Heck... GM takes it to the next level by having 7 different brands (now 6 since olds is pretty much gone) which produce at least some vehicles that could be darn near considered 'twins'.
Whereas Toyota just has two brands. A standard brand and a luxury brand. All of the Lexus SUVs have Toyota SUV counterparts (although the opposite is not true). One of the Lexus cars has a Toyota car counterpart. But they still do a good job of seperating the ES330 from the Camry, especially in terms of the interior design and to a certain extent the drivetrain.
Second of all... after all of the research and messing around I've done with my car and with the factory manuals and parts lists with my car, the only components I've found that are shared between my car and any Toyota vehicle is the cruise control, the windshield wiper stalks, and the oil filter... and even the oil filter is slightly different part number and slightly different inside if you take it apart... but it's still cross-compatible with the Supra and Tundra V8 oil filters.
Lastly, if you are referencing the fact that Toyota uses the Camry platform for the Avalon (stretched camry chassis), the Sienna (very stretched and reinforced camry chassis), the ES330 (nearly identical in terms of chassis), the Highlander, and the RX330... that is definitely true and it probably saves them a lot of money. But have you noticed other companies doing this as well? GM hasn't started doing it until just recently with their Malibu platform that they've shared out to some other Chevy models, Cadillac models, the Saab 9-3, and maybe more... I'm not sure beyond that.
Honda uses the Accord platform for the MDX SUV and their Passport minivan as well.
And lastly you've got Nissan who has turned their profit model around 180 degrees by developing their FMV platform/chassis which can be easily stretched and reinforced in both directions with little to no additional cost in research and development or manufacturing techniques... it's in use with the Altima, the Maxima, the Murano, the new Quest, the 350Z, the G35, the FX, and so on.
Platform sharing is really the way of the future IMO.
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From: Commerce, mi, USA
Dude, I couldn't agree with you more regarding the styling. I often refer to Toyota cars as "driving appliances". But the fact is that the effort they WOULD spend on styling is instead placed on 6-sigma quality control, LEAN manufacturing techniques (which is a version of JIT on steroids), "Zero-Defects" assembly methods, and the like. They are rolling out "appliances" that do a basic job well for a low price.
) that Toyota can make a lot of torque-inhibited silver sedans. But Toyota (late-model Supra notwithstanding) has done virtually nothing for those who have a passion for their car (or truck). This is the main reason I, and many, many like me, will most likely never buy a Toyota. Jennifer, knock yourself out and I hope you enjoy your new... refrigerator 
Toyota is POUNDING the automotive world, and it's a smart move IMO, etc
http://www.gm.com/company/investor_i...n_08_06_02.pdf
From the report: From 1997 to 2001, Toyota's assembly productivity (on their oh-so-wonderfully-simple-product-lineup) worsened 6% to 22 hours per vehicle built, while GM's improved 17% (granted to 26 hours/veh). Toyota had better keep an eye on their mirrors b/c GM is gaining fast! Has anyone noticed, how key indicators of productivity and quality for GM and Toyota, are getting closer over time? (Even though GM is producing far more new models and variants?) This is because yes, GM is learning from Toyota. They adopted a close clone of Toyota's manufacturing system and practices. Any tricky new innovations introduced by Toyota will be quickly assimilated into GM's methodology. GM's finally getting a handle on the pension liabilities which have hampered it so long. And they're no doubt introducing a few manufacturing innovations of their own
In fact, GM outpaced ALL manufacturers in overall productivity improvement in 2002:
http://www.autointell.net/nao_compan...rbour-2002.htm
And speaking of... Quality? One word for you. Oshawa.
And maybe you hadn't noticed while mouth-frothing over mighty Toyota...
General Motors' Cadillac Division has re-emerged as a leader in initial vehicle quality among luxury nameplates, according to the 2004 J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study. In addition, the study named GM's Lansing Grand River assembly plant the high-ranking assembly plant in North and South America for initial quality. Lansing Grand River also was ranked the world's third best plant in the annual study. Overall, the world's largest automaker registered a 10 percent improvement in initial quality.
GM's Lansing Grand River, Mich. assembly plant received the prestigious Gold Plant Award, while GM's Detroit-Hamtramck, Mich. assembly plant received the Silver Plant Award, taking second place for initial quality in the Americas.
"The renaissance of Cadillac continues as it nears the top spot among luxury nameplates in initial quality. In fact, Cadillac cars have now surpassed Lexus cars in initial quality," said Gary Cowger, president of GM North America. "Customers once again expect bold design, precision craftsmanship, outstanding performance and world-class quality from Cadillac. The all-new Cadillac STS will take quality, sophisticated luxury and refinement to the next level."
Two of Cadillac's newest models, the CTS and the XLR are among the top 10 in the industry in initial quality.
GM's Lansing Grand River, Mich. assembly plant received the prestigious Gold Plant Award, while GM's Detroit-Hamtramck, Mich. assembly plant received the Silver Plant Award, taking second place for initial quality in the Americas.
"The renaissance of Cadillac continues as it nears the top spot among luxury nameplates in initial quality. In fact, Cadillac cars have now surpassed Lexus cars in initial quality," said Gary Cowger, president of GM North America. "Customers once again expect bold design, precision craftsmanship, outstanding performance and world-class quality from Cadillac. The all-new Cadillac STS will take quality, sophisticated luxury and refinement to the next level."
Two of Cadillac's newest models, the CTS and the XLR are among the top 10 in the industry in initial quality.
How many more "Oldsmobile's" will cease to exist? Eagle? Others? What if (I know, big stretch, but it COULD happen) Chevy has to go? or Lincoln? or Ford? or GMC?
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From: Memphis
For what it's worth, I'm very excited and pleased with GM's Cadillac doing so well in initial quality studies, as well as their other brands improving so much.
However, I will remain skeptical until we see what happens after the 90 days. Like namely after several years when decent amount of miles have been racked up with plenty of abuse.
Durability and reliability are not really that closely related to the initial number of defects found in a car, although it's still a valid indicator.
D'oh.
However, I will remain skeptical until we see what happens after the 90 days. Like namely after several years when decent amount of miles have been racked up with plenty of abuse.
Durability and reliability are not really that closely related to the initial number of defects found in a car, although it's still a valid indicator.
Originally posted by AdioSS
correction: they now have 3 with Scion
correction: they now have 3 with Scion
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From: Commerce, mi, USA
Durability and reliability are not really that closely related to the initial number of defects found in a car, although it's still a valid indicator.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/rr/quality.htm
The top 15 brands in the most recent initial quality survey were: Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Toyota, Volvo, Honda, BMW, Cadillac, Buick, Lincoln, Saturn, Porsche, Chevrolet, Mercedes and Chrysler. They ranged in number of complaints per 100 vehicles from 88 for Lexus to 133 for Chrysler. The top 15 individual vehicles were: Lexus LS 430, Lincoln Blackwood, Lexus SC430, Lexus GS300/GS430, Mercedes S-Class, Buick Century, Ford Thunderbird, Mercedes SL-Class, Lexus LX470, Chevy Monte Carlo, Acura TL and Lincoln Town Car. The range here was from 56 to 94.
Now by way of direct comparison let’s go to the other end of the spectrum - to four and five year old vehicles. Power says that even in this age of leases where people simply trade keys after a few years, long-term durability is an important consideration to more than half of all new vehicle buyers. A reputation for poor durability also lowers resale value, and thus the cost of leases.
The top five brands? Those with the fewest problems after four to five years on the road? Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Honda and Toyota, proving that if they are built correctly in the first place, they will be more reliable. This survey was conducted among 30,000 owners of 1998 models, some of which were sold in 1997.
Now by way of direct comparison let’s go to the other end of the spectrum - to four and five year old vehicles. Power says that even in this age of leases where people simply trade keys after a few years, long-term durability is an important consideration to more than half of all new vehicle buyers. A reputation for poor durability also lowers resale value, and thus the cost of leases.
The top five brands? Those with the fewest problems after four to five years on the road? Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Honda and Toyota, proving that if they are built correctly in the first place, they will be more reliable. This survey was conducted among 30,000 owners of 1998 models, some of which were sold in 1997.
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: South Bend, Indiana
Originally posted by Threxx
And lastly you've got Nissan who has turned their profit model around 180 degrees by developing their FMV platform/chassis which can be easily stretched and reinforced in both directions with little to no additional cost in research and development or manufacturing techniques... it's in use with the Altima, the Maxima, the Murano, the new Quest, the 350Z, the G35, the FX, and so on.
And lastly you've got Nissan who has turned their profit model around 180 degrees by developing their FMV platform/chassis which can be easily stretched and reinforced in both directions with little to no additional cost in research and development or manufacturing techniques... it's in use with the Altima, the Maxima, the Murano, the new Quest, the 350Z, the G35, the FX, and so on.
Either way, Nissan was probably close to death there for a while until they developed all these products we see now. I personally think their the most exciting car company right now. The Altima is silly quick for an affordable price and its a fawking regular midsize sedan. I know its FWD but thats still what a lot of people want. And look at the new Armada and QX56 hitting 60 in like 7 seconds.
Those things are freaking huge and they'll out-accelerate most midsize sedans and sports cars.
Last edited by Meccadeth; May 22, 2004 at 05:47 AM.
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From: Memphis
Originally posted by Meccadeth
I don't think all of those are based on the same platform/chassis, are they? The G35, 350Z and FX being RWD and Murano, Maxima, Altima and Quest being FWD makes me think that their not on all the same.
I don't think all of those are based on the same platform/chassis, are they? The G35, 350Z and FX being RWD and Murano, Maxima, Altima and Quest being FWD makes me think that their not on all the same.
EDIT: I just realized I only said "FX". I meant the FX 35 and FX 45.. not the FX 56 which is not even remotely close, as it's body on frame and 95% based on the Nissan Titan/Pathfinder Armada.
Last edited by Threxx; May 22, 2004 at 10:57 AM.
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From: Jersey Shore
Originally posted by Threxx
Trust me.. they are all based on the same Nissan FMV platform. That's what is so amazing about this platform... it is so versatile in its use that it can serve faithfully for all of those vehicles I mentioned, and I'm sure more in the future.
EDIT: I just realized I only said "FX". I meant the FX 35 and FX 45.. not the FX 56 which is not even remotely close, as it's body on frame and 95% based on the Nissan Titan/Pathfinder Armada.
Trust me.. they are all based on the same Nissan FMV platform. That's what is so amazing about this platform... it is so versatile in its use that it can serve faithfully for all of those vehicles I mentioned, and I'm sure more in the future.
EDIT: I just realized I only said "FX". I meant the FX 35 and FX 45.. not the FX 56 which is not even remotely close, as it's body on frame and 95% based on the Nissan Titan/Pathfinder Armada.
And Nissan was on its death bed till Renault picked it up.
and the best line ever: Shift_designers.
When I want a Mini Van or SUV to patrol Mars with, Ill give Nissan a call.
And the Armada and that Infinity model are probably the ugliest things I have ever seen. It makes the Aztek look sexy.
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From: Commerce, mi, USA
When I want a Mini Van or SUV to patrol Mars with, Ill give Nissan a call. And the Armada and that Infinity model are probably the ugliest things I have ever seen.
That new Nissan minivan (Quest? IIRC) is particularly goofy. The Armada looks like someone bolted on the wrong front clip. The Murano is not bad though. Nissan does deserve some credit for taking some chances with styling... too bad their quality slipped in the process....
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Jersey Shore
Originally posted by BigDarknFast
Agreed That new Nissan minivan (Quest? IIRC) is particularly goofy. The Armada looks like someone bolted on the wrong front clip. The Murano is not bad though. Nissan does deserve some credit for taking some chances with styling... too bad their quality slipped in the process....
Agreed
That new Nissan minivan (Quest? IIRC) is particularly goofy. The Armada looks like someone bolted on the wrong front clip. The Murano is not bad though. Nissan does deserve some credit for taking some chances with styling... too bad their quality slipped in the process....
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Originally posted by Big Als Z
The only car I like from Nissan is the 350Z. The Murano is the SUV spaceship in question. The FX cars are alright... just something about them.... doesnt sit right.
The only car I like from Nissan is the 350Z. The Murano is the SUV spaceship in question. The FX cars are alright... just something about them.... doesnt sit right.
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: South Bend, Indiana
Originally posted by Threxx
EDIT: I just realized I only said "FX". I meant the FX 35 and FX 45.. not the FX 56 which is not even remotely close, as it's body on frame and 95% based on the Nissan Titan/Pathfinder Armada.
EDIT: I just realized I only said "FX". I meant the FX 35 and FX 45.. not the FX 56 which is not even remotely close, as it's body on frame and 95% based on the Nissan Titan/Pathfinder Armada.
