Toyota being investigated by federal prosecutors
02-24-2010, 05:07 AM
#16
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There are MANY reasons why what Ms. Smith said happened couldn't have happened the way she described. It's not to say that her car couldn't have accelerated by itself, but as far as the rest of it, she may want to learn a thing or two about cars before she fabricates a story instead of admitting she panicked.
Also, I'd be remiss not to mention the fact that Ford, a so-called "beacon of American automobile quality" nowadays, had almost the same rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" as Toyota. Maybe the media figures Ford has taken such a severe beating over several well-known safety issues that they won't bother reporting such information.....but I'm curious to know what Ford is doing about their "sudden unintended acceleration" problems?
I've personally had the throttle stick open on me in my Trans Am - at the dragstrip. It happened at the top of 2nd gear. Obviously, it's an easy fix in a manual transmission car (disengage clutch), but I was able to do that, and while the engine was bouncing off the rev limiter, I wasn't trying to pump the brakes to stop, I was pumping the gas pedal instead; about 5 quick "stomps" unstuck it. Since my car has an aftermarket throttle body, this obviously was in no way "GM's fault", but it definitely was an unwelcome surprise.
Another strange thing happened in my GF's 2000 Nissan Altima. She came home one day and told me she pushed her brakes and the car wouldn't stop. She took the car into two different shops and they didn't find anything wrong. Mind you, this was in the dead middle of an Illinois winter. I took her out to the car and said, "You know what this handle here is for? Most people call this thing a 'parking brake', but this will stop your car in an emergency." I then went with her and had her practice using it a couple times. Not too long after that, we were in downtown Chicago in the car and it happened again, she pulled the e-brake, and a funny thing happened - we stopped. It's strange how in almost all instances, a person can save themselves if they just know how to drive their cars.
Also, I'd be remiss not to mention the fact that Ford, a so-called "beacon of American automobile quality" nowadays, had almost the same rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" as Toyota. Maybe the media figures Ford has taken such a severe beating over several well-known safety issues that they won't bother reporting such information.....but I'm curious to know what Ford is doing about their "sudden unintended acceleration" problems?
I've personally had the throttle stick open on me in my Trans Am - at the dragstrip. It happened at the top of 2nd gear. Obviously, it's an easy fix in a manual transmission car (disengage clutch), but I was able to do that, and while the engine was bouncing off the rev limiter, I wasn't trying to pump the brakes to stop, I was pumping the gas pedal instead; about 5 quick "stomps" unstuck it. Since my car has an aftermarket throttle body, this obviously was in no way "GM's fault", but it definitely was an unwelcome surprise.
Another strange thing happened in my GF's 2000 Nissan Altima. She came home one day and told me she pushed her brakes and the car wouldn't stop. She took the car into two different shops and they didn't find anything wrong. Mind you, this was in the dead middle of an Illinois winter. I took her out to the car and said, "You know what this handle here is for? Most people call this thing a 'parking brake', but this will stop your car in an emergency." I then went with her and had her practice using it a couple times. Not too long after that, we were in downtown Chicago in the car and it happened again, she pulled the e-brake, and a funny thing happened - we stopped. It's strange how in almost all instances, a person can save themselves if they just know how to drive their cars.
02-24-2010, 07:37 AM
#17
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You didn't explain anything as to how it couldn't happen. If the transmission has no mechanical link, the ECM could override the signal to shift to neutral (which I believe it does in a Toyota to prevent damage), and there are now known issues with some of Toyota's brake systems. Also, this is not the first time it's been described that way, one of which being a dead CHP officer that would know how to drive. Pulling the ebrake at 100mph is about the dumbest thing you could do for the average driver.
I'm sorry you have to own a Toyota
I'm sorry you have to own a Toyota
There are MANY reasons why what Ms. Smith said happened couldn't have happened the way she described. It's not to say that her car couldn't have accelerated by itself, but as far as the rest of it, she may want to learn a thing or two about cars before she fabricates a story instead of admitting she panicked.
Also, I'd be remiss not to mention the fact that Ford, a so-called "beacon of American automobile quality" nowadays, had almost the same rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" as Toyota. Maybe the media figures Ford has taken such a severe beating over several well-known safety issues that they won't bother reporting such information.....but I'm curious to know what Ford is doing about their "sudden unintended acceleration" problems?
I've personally had the throttle stick open on me in my Trans Am - at the dragstrip. It happened at the top of 2nd gear. Obviously, it's an easy fix in a manual transmission car (disengage clutch), but I was able to do that, and while the engine was bouncing off the rev limiter, I wasn't trying to pump the brakes to stop, I was pumping the gas pedal instead; about 5 quick "stomps" unstuck it. Since my car has an aftermarket throttle body, this obviously was in no way "GM's fault", but it definitely was an unwelcome surprise.
Another strange thing happened in my GF's 2000 Nissan Altima. She came home one day and told me she pushed her brakes and the car wouldn't stop. She took the car into two different shops and they didn't find anything wrong. Mind you, this was in the dead middle of an Illinois winter. I took her out to the car and said, "You know what this handle here is for? Most people call this thing a 'parking brake', but this will stop your car in an emergency." I then went with her and had her practice using it a couple times. Not too long after that, we were in downtown Chicago in the car and it happened again, she pulled the e-brake, and a funny thing happened - we stopped. It's strange how in almost all instances, a person can save themselves if they just know how to drive their cars.
Also, I'd be remiss not to mention the fact that Ford, a so-called "beacon of American automobile quality" nowadays, had almost the same rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" as Toyota. Maybe the media figures Ford has taken such a severe beating over several well-known safety issues that they won't bother reporting such information.....but I'm curious to know what Ford is doing about their "sudden unintended acceleration" problems?
I've personally had the throttle stick open on me in my Trans Am - at the dragstrip. It happened at the top of 2nd gear. Obviously, it's an easy fix in a manual transmission car (disengage clutch), but I was able to do that, and while the engine was bouncing off the rev limiter, I wasn't trying to pump the brakes to stop, I was pumping the gas pedal instead; about 5 quick "stomps" unstuck it. Since my car has an aftermarket throttle body, this obviously was in no way "GM's fault", but it definitely was an unwelcome surprise.
Another strange thing happened in my GF's 2000 Nissan Altima. She came home one day and told me she pushed her brakes and the car wouldn't stop. She took the car into two different shops and they didn't find anything wrong. Mind you, this was in the dead middle of an Illinois winter. I took her out to the car and said, "You know what this handle here is for? Most people call this thing a 'parking brake', but this will stop your car in an emergency." I then went with her and had her practice using it a couple times. Not too long after that, we were in downtown Chicago in the car and it happened again, she pulled the e-brake, and a funny thing happened - we stopped. It's strange how in almost all instances, a person can save themselves if they just know how to drive their cars.
02-24-2010, 08:18 AM
#18
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Location: Sterling Heights, MI
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Toyota has a huge problem here, at the very least on the level of the Ford-Firestone episode. I am simply amazed that they would program a transmission not to allow disengagement under WOT conditions, if this is really the case. I would think you would always want to allow the driver some recourse in the event of such an emergency or throttle failure.
02-24-2010, 08:32 AM
#19
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http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...54&newsLang=en
Of the Big Six automakers selling vehicles in the United States, Toyota – as a manufacturer and as an individual brand – has the most consumer complaints filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for unintended acceleration, according to an Edmunds.com analysis of the government safety agency’s data bases...
Toyota Motor Corporation, consisting of its Toyota, Lexus and Scion brands, had 1,133 consumer complaints of unintended acceleration filed with NHTSA through Feb. 3. The complaints cover model years 2005 to 2010.
Rounding out the Big Six are, in order of most complaints to fewest are, Ford Motor Company, consisting of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models, with 387 complaints; Chrysler LLC, consisting of Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge models, with 171 complaints; General Motors, consisting of Chevrolet, Pontiac, Cadillac, GMC, Saturn, Saab, Buick and Hummer brands, with 152 complaints; Honda, including its Acura division, with 113 complaints; and Nissan, including its Infiniti division, with 62 complaints.
Toyota Motor Corporation, consisting of its Toyota, Lexus and Scion brands, had 1,133 consumer complaints of unintended acceleration filed with NHTSA through Feb. 3. The complaints cover model years 2005 to 2010.
Rounding out the Big Six are, in order of most complaints to fewest are, Ford Motor Company, consisting of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury models, with 387 complaints; Chrysler LLC, consisting of Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge models, with 171 complaints; General Motors, consisting of Chevrolet, Pontiac, Cadillac, GMC, Saturn, Saab, Buick and Hummer brands, with 152 complaints; Honda, including its Acura division, with 113 complaints; and Nissan, including its Infiniti division, with 62 complaints.
02-24-2010, 09:46 AM
#20
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Location: Toronto, ON Canada
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People get licenses - they know how to drive. They can turn, start, stop, merge with traffic, etc... Arguably, some are better at it than others. When we expand the definition of "driving" to include reacting in emergency situations, however, the story changes... This ought to be required for obtaining a license, in my opinion. Understand the function of the e-brake, understand how to shut off the engine, etc...
You have a compounded problem when a manufacturer changes how the vehicle behaves, which is the case with Toyota. Push button start that needs to be held for 3 seconds, and no one to educate the driver on it? A computer that interprets vehicle's sensors and figure out what YOU want to do, instead of letting YOU decide what YOU want to do? Yes, that latter point is applicable across all brands, but we are changing rapidly from mechanical automobiles to electronic ones, and this is done behind the scene without people's knowledge. The transition is smooth, but it does have a few hiccups - and when it does, people don't know what to make of it.
02-24-2010, 10:08 AM
#21
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I am watching the hearings on CSPAN right now. Toyota admits they were able to duplicate the condition Dr. Gilbert found. They hired an independent 3rd party to test it and it was confirmed. One of the representitives from Pittsburgh told them they should apologize to him and get him down there to assist them in the testing. Toyotas US COO said they are considering it. This is nothing like the faked GM test a few years ago. Its funny that people are looking for reasons to trust Toyota.
02-24-2010, 11:36 AM
#22
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I found this in the Lounge of all places.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...54&newsLang=en
So no, the rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" has most definitely not been the same, at least since 2005. Toyota has had 3 times as many complaints as anyone else.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...54&newsLang=en
So no, the rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" has most definitely not been the same, at least since 2005. Toyota has had 3 times as many complaints as anyone else.
Just this morning, CNN put up a graphic to show the incidents of SUA. It had the same numbers as you quoted.
I was afraid I wasn't going to be able to find it to prove onebadponcho wrong but you found it. Thank you.
02-24-2010, 11:54 AM
#23
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Location: Shelton, WA
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Fords unintended acceleration was linked to faulty cruise control and was admited. They did not hide it and they fixed the issue plus built in fail safes to prevent it in the future. Toyota hid the problem since 2000. The first recall for this took place in the UK in the year 2000.
I found this in the Lounge of all places.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...54&newsLang=en
So no, the rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" has most definitely not been the same, at least since 2005. Toyota has had 3 times as many complaints as anyone else.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...54&newsLang=en
So no, the rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" has most definitely not been the same, at least since 2005. Toyota has had 3 times as many complaints as anyone else.
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...eleration.html
If you're going to quote me, at least do it right.
This is for those of you here (many, I'm sure) who are unable to understand the simple math involved.
Toyota: 1/50000 = 0.002%
Ford: 1/65000 = 0.0015%
Difference: 0.0005%
That's almost the same. Does that fact hurt your feelings?
Last edited by onebadponcho; 02-24-2010 at 12:11 PM.
02-24-2010, 11:55 AM
#24
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I found this in the Lounge of all places.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...54&newsLang=en
So no, the rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" has most definitely not been the same, at least since 2005. Toyota has had 3 times as many complaints as anyone else.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...54&newsLang=en
So no, the rate of incidence of "unintended sudden acceleration" has most definitely not been the same, at least since 2005. Toyota has had 3 times as many complaints as anyone else.
When you consider the amount of vehicles produced be these companies compared to the number of incidents, Toyota appears to be little bit less of an outlier and GM appears to be downright awesome
(assuming the article quoted is referring to number of complaints per year... couldn't check for myself because the link is a copy/paste of an abridged url and 404s)
02-24-2010, 12:33 PM
#26
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Location: Shelton, WA
Posts: 954
That fact may **** off some police officers here, but that's tough $h!t. I stilll assert that if the CHP officer knew his car and how to drive it, which in the story, was reported as a loaner car, there's a damn good chance him and his family would've lived to tell people about it.You say it's dumb to pull an e-brake at 100mph, so I suppose you would just sit there, continue to accelerate out of control while you're talking on your cell phone expecting ***king OnStar to save your life, and just kill yourself. That's a much better alternative.
I'm not.
Come to think of it, I haven't been "sorry" that I've owned ANY of the cars I've had.
02-24-2010, 12:45 PM
#27
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Fixed.
If you're going to quote me, at least do it right.
This is for those of you here (many, I'm sure) who are unable to understand the simple math involved.
Toyota: 1/50000 = 0.002%
Ford: 1/65000 = 0.0015%
Difference: 0.0005%
That's almost the same. Does that fact hurt your feelings?
If you're going to quote me, at least do it right.
This is for those of you here (many, I'm sure) who are unable to understand the simple math involved.
Toyota: 1/50000 = 0.002%
Ford: 1/65000 = 0.0015%
Difference: 0.0005%
That's almost the same. Does that fact hurt your feelings?
But I question your source.
Based on a Consumer Reports study of 2008 complaints to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, about one of every 50,000 Toyota, one of every 65,000 Ford and just one in every 500,000 GM vehicles experienced a problem.
And why the discrepancy between CR's study and the other stats (which, by the way, I believe more because more credible sources are reporting those figures)? This is the first I've seen of your stats. And, quite frankly, I don't put much stock in them considering the source.
Bottom line, the difference between 1,133 and 387 is certainly NOT "almost the same". These numbers are consumer complaints of unintended acceleration filed with NHTSA through Feb. 3 and they cover model years 2005 to 2010.
02-24-2010, 01:00 PM
#28
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Get real.
You say it's dumb to pull an e-brake at 100mph, so I suppose you would just sit there, continue to accelerate out of control while you're talking on your cell phone expecting ***king OnStar to save your life, and just kill yourself. That's a much better alternative.
If 4 brakes don't stop the car, what makes you think 2 will?
People will pull the handle, lock the rear brakes, and spin out of control. THAT'S what we need on the highway.
02-24-2010, 01:22 PM
#29
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Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 6,166
I noticed how you completely glossed over the reasons why you cannot excuse Toyota of anything because the "average" driver is too stupid to control their vehicle in emergency situations (your premise, not mine). You seem to have the same corporate mentality Toyota has shown, blaming their customers rather than considering the possibility of any suspect engineering work. From sludged up motors ("you didn't change your oil right, or on time") to rotting/crumbling frames ("you're abusing the vehicle") to unintended acceleration ("you're just an idiot"), you've got it down cold.
