Toyota Accused of Hiding Evidence
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,512
From: Miami, FL, US
I'm quite certain that every large corporation does this very same thing to some extent. It's just natural to not want to divulge information that is going to cost you millions. The only reason this got out was because a lawyer betrayed his legal obligations to his former employer ... to be honest, I think I'm more on Toyota's side on this one.
The lawyer is doing the wrong thing for doing the morally RIGHT thing? Contracts and stupid pieces of papers go above and beyond what's morally right thing to do?
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
I will apply the same logic that I am currently using with my favorite college football team after the allegations came out against them this weekend. 
It just might be wise to first consider the source and look at some of the potential motivating factors behind the allegations. While I do find it odd that Toyota didn't immediately and vehemently deny the charges, I believe they are deserving of the same due process that any other automaker would receive.
It just might be wise to first consider the source and look at some of the potential motivating factors behind the allegations. While I do find it odd that Toyota didn't immediately and vehemently deny the charges, I believe they are deserving of the same due process that any other automaker would receive.
Last edited by Z28Wilson; Aug 31, 2009 at 01:10 PM.
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Posts: 538
it's about time
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Joined: May 2001
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From: New Haven, CT
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I needed/wanted a truck. God damn if I was going to buy an import truck.Every auto manufacturer has their issues. This is just another. May due process play its part and uncover what needs to be uncovered, if anything.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 940
From: Southern Indiana
I'm quite certain that every large corporation does this very same thing to some extent. It's just natural to not want to divulge information that is going to cost you millions. The only reason this got out was because a lawyer betrayed his legal obligations to his former employer ... to be honest, I think I'm more on Toyota's side on this one.
Lives >>>...>>> any stupid pieces of paper
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,712
From: Ontario
So, because the lawyer signed a paper it gives Toyota the right to keep selling cars to people that think they buy a safe product? When in reality it HAS cause deaths.
The lawyer is doing the wrong thing for doing the morally RIGHT thing? Contracts and stupid pieces of papers go above and beyond what's morally right thing to do?
The lawyer is doing the wrong thing for doing the morally RIGHT thing? Contracts and stupid pieces of papers go above and beyond what's morally right thing to do?
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 174
From: Southeast, USA
There are two things about this story. One is the legal front where Toyota, like any company, deserves to defend itself in court. The second is the political part. The media (or more accurately the people who run the media) have beaten GM to death and they now need some fresh meat. As the old saying goes, you can't beat a dead horse.
We'll see if this story has any traction. Somehow, I feel like it's fizzling already because, as far as I know, no other news outlet has picked it up.
We'll see if this story has any traction. Somehow, I feel like it's fizzling already because, as far as I know, no other news outlet has picked it up.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,450
From: LA, So Cal
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
I will apply the same logic that I am currently using with my favorite college football team after the allegations came out against them this weekend.
It just might be wise to first consider the source and look at some of the potential motivating factors behind the allegations. While I do find it odd that Toyota didn't immediately and vehemently deny the charges, I believe they are deserving of the same due process that any other automaker would receive.
It just might be wise to first consider the source and look at some of the potential motivating factors behind the allegations. While I do find it odd that Toyota didn't immediately and vehemently deny the charges, I believe they are deserving of the same due process that any other automaker would receive.
ohh please..like that would happen...
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,748
From: New England
I love this:
and I love this even more..
and TRUE
It may not be priviledged....
CRIME-FRAUD EXCEPTION - 'There is no privilege under this article [dealing with attorney-client privilege] if the services of the lawyer were sought or obtained to enable or aid anyone to commit or plan to commit a crime or a fraud.' California Evidence Code section 956
Where the entire attorney-client relationship is embarked upon in furtherance of criminal activity, and the relationship is permeated by criminal activity and the client takes an active part in it, the crime-fraud exception is satisfied notwithstanding that it may have been the attorney who originally conscripted the client for the illegal purpose. In re Impounded Case (Law Firm) (1989) 879 F.2d 1211, 1213-14.
In order to establish the crime-fraud exception to the privilege, 'the party opposing the privilege must establish a prima facie case of fraud. [T]he party must also establish a reasonable relationship between the fraud and the attorney-client communication.' Cunningham v. Connecticut Mut. Life. Ins. (S.D.Cal. 1994) 845 F.Supp. 1403, 1412.
Work product is governed by a different statute than attorney-client privilege. Code of Civil Procedure section 2018, subdivision (b) states in part that 'the work product of an attorney is not discoverable unless the court determines that denial of discovery will unfairly prejudice the party seeking discovery in preparing that party's claim or defense or will result in an injustice.' Subdivision (c) provides: 'Any writing that reflects an attorney's impressions, conclusions, opinions, or legal research or theories shall not be discoverable under any circumstances.' Code Civ. Proc., Ð 2018, subd. (c). In BP Alaska Exploration, Inc. v. Superior Court (1988) 199 Cal.App.3d 1240, the court held that the crime-fraud exception to the attorney-client privilege does not apply to attorney work product because, by its terms Penal Code section 956 'expressly applies to communications ordinarily shielded by the attorney-client privilege,' while the 'work product rule encompasses a companion but separate document protection.' 199 Cal.App.3d at 1249.
It is the burden of the party asserting the work product privilege to prove that the material in question is work product and therefore privileged. BP Alaska Exploration, Inc. v. Superior Court, supra, 199 Cal.App.3d at 1252 ['the party asserting a privilege has the burden of proving the essential elements of the privilege. [Citation.]'].
Under the federal rules of civil procedure the crime-fraud exception applies to work product.
CRIME-FRAUD EXCEPTION - 'There is no privilege under this article [dealing with attorney-client privilege] if the services of the lawyer were sought or obtained to enable or aid anyone to commit or plan to commit a crime or a fraud.' California Evidence Code section 956
Where the entire attorney-client relationship is embarked upon in furtherance of criminal activity, and the relationship is permeated by criminal activity and the client takes an active part in it, the crime-fraud exception is satisfied notwithstanding that it may have been the attorney who originally conscripted the client for the illegal purpose. In re Impounded Case (Law Firm) (1989) 879 F.2d 1211, 1213-14.
In order to establish the crime-fraud exception to the privilege, 'the party opposing the privilege must establish a prima facie case of fraud. [T]he party must also establish a reasonable relationship between the fraud and the attorney-client communication.' Cunningham v. Connecticut Mut. Life. Ins. (S.D.Cal. 1994) 845 F.Supp. 1403, 1412.
Work product is governed by a different statute than attorney-client privilege. Code of Civil Procedure section 2018, subdivision (b) states in part that 'the work product of an attorney is not discoverable unless the court determines that denial of discovery will unfairly prejudice the party seeking discovery in preparing that party's claim or defense or will result in an injustice.' Subdivision (c) provides: 'Any writing that reflects an attorney's impressions, conclusions, opinions, or legal research or theories shall not be discoverable under any circumstances.' Code Civ. Proc., Ð 2018, subd. (c). In BP Alaska Exploration, Inc. v. Superior Court (1988) 199 Cal.App.3d 1240, the court held that the crime-fraud exception to the attorney-client privilege does not apply to attorney work product because, by its terms Penal Code section 956 'expressly applies to communications ordinarily shielded by the attorney-client privilege,' while the 'work product rule encompasses a companion but separate document protection.' 199 Cal.App.3d at 1249.
It is the burden of the party asserting the work product privilege to prove that the material in question is work product and therefore privileged. BP Alaska Exploration, Inc. v. Superior Court, supra, 199 Cal.App.3d at 1252 ['the party asserting a privilege has the burden of proving the essential elements of the privilege. [Citation.]'].
Under the federal rules of civil procedure the crime-fraud exception applies to work product.
and TRUE
And I thought the Japanese made nothing but quality, or so they conned the american public into thinking that. They hid all their recalls from the media or the media didn't bother reporting them. When U.S. car makers had a recall it was headline news.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,712
From: Ontario
Well, I'm no lawyer, and the little bit of information we have is far removed from the source, but I'm still not convinced that's it's not privilege. Your quote seems to indicate that in order to throw out attorney-client privilege, the lawyer must have been used to help perpetrate the fraud ... it seems like this lawyer was trying his best to prevent it, not assist in it. But who knows ...
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,381
I heard toyota did this years ago. thought this was more common knowledge outside the mainstream. either way im not surprised and hope something comes from this. the media has put toyota so high on a pedestal it sickens me.
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 538
It's amazing we got this far as a country without having import trucks. I mean really folks.
