......Far be it from me to suddenly become a GTO apologist, but after some of your personal observations, I had a few more thoughts (I know, a dangerous thing )

There were a few things that bugged the heck out of me once I saw the "Official sketch" from Pontiac of the new GTO.....don't need to kick up the dust from the dead horse I pulverised over the last few months.....I'll just list them in no particular order...

Similarity to the 5 year old GP front fascia....

No other visual cues to the original GTO's, i.e. hood scoops....

The fact that GM had to go half way across the world to fill in a gap that was caused by bad management....

Now having said those things....I have since learned WHY and HOW we got to this point and also the changes that have been made to hopefully ensure we don't repeat this stumble....

I'm still the world's biggest hater of corporate styling ........but I do understand......

My point here is that I believe that once the magazines get these cars to test and they finally start hitting the ground, our opinions will turn from complaints about "bland styling" to finally appreciating the car itself as a really good car....and a great look into GM's future.

Much like the Subaru WRX, this car might not stir your artistic soul, but get behind the wheel and it's legend will grow and the drum beat will grow louder.........and the best part is, we won't have to wait more than a year or so and there'll be the LS6 models to keep the flame burning hotter...that and a few hood designs for us old guys!

The only real downside wil be the price....especially after dealer greed sets in.........

Sure GM could have done their homework better and could have listened better, but it sounds like they did hear us and the 2005 model promises to have us all but forget about these early impressions.

I read the quote from J Mays, posted elsewhere.....and the comments from loud mouth Colletti about why they think the f-body died (well, at least their own biased opinions) and I have to admit I thought they made some really good points.

Lutz & GM really need to listen to their true customer base (not some made up focus groups ) and be humble enough to admit mistakes.........and give the customer what they really want and not go off on their own ego based directions.....the succes or failure of the new Mustang will be a very interesting story to follow indeed.........at least for the next 4-5 years.........or less...........

 

Yup.

 

The GTO is not a slouch in performance. However, due to the exta 200 lbs of weight, it will most likely be a little slower than the LS1 F-Bodies. The GTO is still a good car, though.

However, the 05 Mustang will be a better car. "BLASPHEMY!! A Ford product will never be better than a GM product!" I hate to say it here, especially as a huge Chevy fan, but Ford does have the upper-hand in this one. There are many reasons, but I am too tired to list them right now (maybe tommorow).

A lot of GTO supporters sound like they are settling for the GTO until another Camaro arrives. Doug, look at what you just said, "I'm still the world's biggest hater of corporate styling...but I do understand." That's like saying "Well, the GTO is dull, maybe even ugly, but I guess that's how it's gonna have to be. Now where is the Pontiac dealership so I can shell out $35,000 for this car." C'mon now.

Then you go on to say, "Much like the Subaru WRX, this car might not stir your artistic soul, but get behind the wheel and it's legend will grow and the drum beat will grow louder......that and a few hood designs for us old guys!"

It sounds like your trying to convince yourself that the GTO is a worthwhile purchase. Your saying that maybe when the hood-scoops go on, you might like it more then. Maybe when you drive the car, and feel how fast it is (not as fast as the F-Bod's), maybe then you will like it.

I'm sure there are a lot of GM loyalists out there that don't like the new GTO, but they won't admit it to themselves. The GTO is a bland, corporate styled, heavy, badge-engineered car, that will cost more money than an F-body. GM loyalists think this is a step in the right direction?

 

well since GM is so stupid ... for using one of their global platforms..

why is Ford thinking of doing the same ?? or is the 'falcon' not a famous enough name ?

By BRUCE NEWTON

FORD Motor Company is studying the viability of selling the
Falcon in North America. Blue Oval senior management in
Dearborn approved a "paper study" into the Falcon's suitability for
the US in November 2002, following the introduction of the
dramatically updated BA here in September.

Business cases for both the short and longwheelbase
versions of Falcon are to be examined.

The use of the updated Falcon platform under
other sheetmetal and the viability of the Ford
Australia-developed E265 cross-over wagon as an
export – although not necessarily to North America
– are also thought to be part of the wide-ranging study.

The existence of the study was confirmed exclusively to GoAuto by
FoMoCo president and chief operations officer Nick Scheele and Ford North
America president Jim Padilla at the Detroit auto show last week.

"We're going to take a look and we are in fact going to get several vehicles
over here," confirmed Mr Scheele, the number two man in the corporation
worldwide. "I haven't driven the car over here yet, so I think they are arriving
this month and I am looking forward to driving them here and seeing how they
compare with other products on US roads."

At least one Fairmont Ghia V8 is already on the roads of Detroit and being
driven by Ford styling chief J. Mays.

The three-valve 5.4-litre V8 engine, now offered with BA, has played a key
role in triggering FoMoCo's investigation.

"For the first time now we've got something that does not have a unique
powertrain," Mr Scheele said. "It does in some of the variants, but for the topend
we've got a US V8."

Investigating BA makes sense as the US Big Three are all throwing more
resources at developing passenger cars and the Falcon could be a quick fix for
Ford – in the same way the Holden Monaro has become a Pontiac GTO for GM.

Also, there is more emphasis on performance cars in Detroit and that means
rear-wheel drive, which provides another opportunity for Ford Australia.

And then there's Ford's Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis, the only
large rear-wheel drive car in the company's line-up, which sells predominantly
to fleets and police forces. The ageing Crown Vic is currently embroiled in
controversy over rear impact collision safety in the US and is due for a complete
and expensive overhaul in the next few years.

It is possible all this could combine to offer Ford Australia an opportunity to
join the export bandwagon already embraced by Toyota, Holden and
Mitsubishi.

"We need to do some evaluations, we need to do some clinics and we need
to see how it (BA) handles with customers over here," Mr Scheele said.
"I don't think we can do this on a 'God this seems good to me' kind of basis,
a gut feel.

"The sales divisions would have to be convinced that it's the right way to go.
We'd have to look at a number of things."

Mr Scheele dismissed the prospect of BA becoming a Lincoln – Ford's top
North American luxury division – leaving the possibility that, if approved, a
Falcon derivative could be branded as a Ford or Mercury – the company's
semi-luxury brand.

As for other export market possibilities for BA: "We are looking at North
America first and let's see what happens there – and then we could see if there's
anything else," Mr Scheele said.

Added Mr Padilla: "I think we have to explore possibilities for it (Falcon) but
I think we also have to recognise that there would be probably quite a bit of
homologation to bring it into the United States."

Mr Padilla also killed off speculation that the forthcoming new generation
Mustang would be based on the BA Falcon's dramatically updated platform.

"It is not derived from the Australian Falcon. It may have some comparable
elements but it isn't the same," he said.

 

.....that the GTO, even at an extra 200# will be slower than the f-body......don't forget, it will also be rated at at least 350hp (our best was 325hp) the 1st year and have the LS6 option in '05! ( Don't talk about under-ratings, because the GTO has the LS1 too.....)

Again, far be it from me to be a GTO cheerleader, but the point I was making was to wait and see how they perform and what they look like out in the real world.

 

One good thing that COULD come from the common styling is that dealer's won't be able to mark them up over sticker.

But, beign a limited production car, there is not much chance of that...

 

The LS1 was not under-rated, but in the f-bodies it was!

You missed the point, the GTO like the Corvette will be advertised with the actual hp of the LS1 or maybe a little more, but the f-bodies were under-rated since most of them dyno 300-310 to the rear wheels stock (That's 345-360 to the flywheel).

If the GTO has 350 hp for 04 and weighs 200 lbs more the win goes to the F-Bodies easily!

If the GTO gets the LS6 for 05, that's what more mods are for.

I respect the GTO *cough*Imported Monaro*cough* getting the LS1, but the Aussie styling is too dull and boring for me. I would rather take a used 2002 F-Body and buy a new 05 Mustang when they come out.

 

I just hope that someday when they bring back the F-Bodies that they won't get all funky with it. I haven't seen a good comeback of a car for a long time. I think the GTO looks pretty good though. I actually liked the Thunderbird when they brought that back. I think the Cuda was a freakin joke and who knows what they will come up with next. I'm bracing myself for the horror that will be the 2004 Mustang 350GT come back. That thing is really scary looking.

 

Ok, all the apologists step up to the plate now.

Fact: the GTO is too little, too late.

Too few horsepower. If I'm comparing to an M3, who cares if one has 333 and one has 340. If it was 333 vs 400, then you have something to talk about.

Too boring styling. No, I'm not talking hood scoops. I'm just talking plain old styling. The Mustang concept is exciting. This will get lost on rental lots with the Grand Ams. And yes, I have seen it in person.

Too few body styles. Lop off the roof and you'll pardon many other sins, at least in my eyes.

The only thing not too little about it is the price tag.

 

I've seen the GTO in spy pictures and did not like it.

I've seen the GTO in the official "Make it look good" GM photos and did not like it.

I seen the GTO in person at the auto show, walked around it several times, and was surprised to see that it was actually more dull in real life.

All of my friends who seen the car with me, did not like it.

The GTO has the same engine as the LS1 F-bodies except for a different cam, which according to GM, is supposed to enhance low-end torque a bit.

The LS1 F-bodies often dyno at around 300 RWHP, which is about 350 HP at the crank. I don't see the GTO as being any faster than the F-bodies.

 

look at all the people willing the GTO horse power to be the same as the f-body.....

who cares.... its getting a different cam so the characteristics for the GTO specific motor will be different whether more powerful or not...

Im interested to hear what the general concensus was, on other new car introductions, eg the 4 gen f-bods, did people fall in love on first sight???

im sure the was an easing in to its..looks period.

the reason i say this is, when sometimes show the U.S. cars on the aussie web sites, the unanimous response = fugly....

why ? is it because our taste in styles are different, or more likely is it conditioning / getting used to something...

how did most people react to the CTS styling at first, i see a lot of people are liking it now !!! especially the ctsv

i dunno but im sure give it time... and it will come good.

this is my theory, of course the 05 stang doesnt apply, beacause it allready looks familiar... but it might age faster...

 

Get over the fact that its not an fbody replacement. If it was it'd cost $25k, it would have a live axle, and it would be built like ****. Its more aimed at the M3. What does the M3 look like? Every other BMW coupe that has ever been produced. And what does every BMW coupe have in common? Boring styling. They're selling well.

I honestly can not wait until the rags start testing the GTO and realize that the ****ty quality we've gotten shoved down our throats for the past 20 years wont fly anymore.

 

check out this thread... OMG !!!! i hope its true....

http://www.newagegto.com/cgi-bin/ult...c;f=1;t=000060

 

I think CTS and GTO are two very different situations, styling-wise, though...

CTS is VERY bold and stands out. It is definately a LOVE IT or HATE IT car... personally, I have loved it from the beginning...

GTO, on the other hand, does not really stand out at all... in fact, it blends in very much with the looks of what is already common-place. I do not think many people have compalined about GTO being ugly... but I hear a lot of people saying it is 'bland' or 'familiar'... I have felt this way ,as well, from the beginning about GTO...

 

The F-Bodies have been making 345-360 hp since 1998 when the LS1 was introduced in them. People found this out from dynoing their cars at the rear wheels and finding out GM under rated them.

For GM to save money they can just put in LS1 right from 2002 F-Bodies and make the 345-360 hp they're claiming.

I don't know if there going to put a different cam in or not for the GTO (a LS6 cam is my guess), but I would be interested in comparing the cam specs.

You Aussies got a detuned LS1( ) while the GTO gets the LS1 straight from the engine plant with no detuning like the Vette and F-bodies.

A GTO that has a LS1 and weighs 200 lbs more. I won't have any problem racing one.

A cam is also not a big deal for a engine because plenty of people switch them out with better ones.

Also, GM is making the hp close to the f-bodies not us.