Yur_Masture

Back this up with results from a test showing a statistically significant difference based on empirical evidence please. "Just seems" doesn't cut it.

Threxx

Based on my personal experience with C4s and C5s as well as the general consensus that I hear from C4 and C5 owners.. the seats are very hard to keep from looking worn - especially the non-black colors.

I'm sure you're aware that the opti is a common problem on the LT1 and that some of the previous gen Toyota V6s had sludging issues... yet you may very well have never gotten "empirical evidence". So I guess that doesn't cut it either? Or did you accept those ones at face value?

I love the double-standards around here... people will act like they expect you to write up a college level essay with citations and sources on all statements... if they don't agree with you. If they do (want to) agree with you then nobody raises an eyebrow.

Good Ph.D

STFU noob would have sufficed.

Or something jazzier, like,

Your post count is empirical evidence you needing to STFU!

GRNcamaro

i agree with you 100% there

unvc92camarors

Probably because one would figure they would know the facts already if they're agreeing with you.

Yur_Masture

The opti-problem can be explained by its design, as would any problem with the seats on a Vette. Just explain their design flaw, and compare it to other sports cars in its class. If the materials are inferior, then I would accept the hypothesis that they would wear quicker without actually testing it.

Yur_Masture

Sorry to divert Threxx's attention. Don't worry, I'll go away soon and let you have him all to yourself.

Threxx

The problem here is that you seem to expect me to quantify or objectify the design flaw, rather than just make an observation.

I just know that it's obvious to me that not all leather is the same and not all seat designs are the same. As to whether the materials are inferior or just the design is... I do not know. But that doesn't keep me from making a simple observation that the C4/5s I see seem to have suffered abnormally high seat wear per milage, and that I hear many of their owners complaining of the same thing.

There really IS no direct competitor to the Vette - but the ones closest to it... I just don't tend to see or hear the same problems from.

Again - Toyota V6 sludge issue... Honda Accord trans issue... or just about any other well-known fact in the automotive world or outside of it... can you honestly tell me that you haven't accepted any of them at face value without first disecting them and ensuring you can understand why they're happening? Just because you can't tell why it's happening doesn't change your observation that it is happening. It just means you don't know why. Maybe you'll figure it out eventually, or maybe you won't. Maybe it's just not worth it to you to explain every observation you encounter to yourself. I know for me that'd slow down my learning process immensely.

Yur_Masture

Exactly, my friend! We cannot make a general conclusion based on your observations. Your observations may be outliers. Furthermore, are you really learning if your premises are not grounded in truth?

Threxx

I didn't ask you to make a conclusion. I asked for additional information to further my understanding of my observations. I was given some useful information accompanied by Pacer - the rest of it... mostly critisism.

A premise is, more or less, a preliminary assumption. So yes, absolutely you can learn if you don't ground a premise in the truth. A premise is not intended to be fact - it's intended to be a starting point - based on observations at best.

Why are we getting into philisophical tail-chaising discussion over simple observation of premature Corvette seat wear anyway?

Ya know what? Audis rattle a lot despite good initial perceived quality. I've heard that many times before - I've observed it with friend's VW/Audi products, and now I have experienced it with my own leased A4. Have I done a survey to see how many owners complain of rattles, what part of the design or assembly process is responsible for these rattles, or anything else? No. But that doesn't change the fact that they tend to rattle a lot.

I suppose if even GM has had troubles solving the problem with the seats- that I'm not going to have much more luck pinpointing the flaw.

Yur_Masture

I know you didn't, I am simply stating that neither you nor I could make one on par with my standards from your data.

Technically, in a logic sense, it's the use of a statement affirming or denying something in support of a conclusion. My point is that if your premise is flawed, then simply acquiring knowledge in support of it cannot be leading you to make the best possible decisions. If my premise contradicts yours, they can't each be right. Somebody is going to make a better decision.

Almost two years ago, I choose to buy a C6 in spite of three otherwise intelligent people warning me not to buy an American car because of all the "problems". I'm still smiling.

Because you love it, and I drank a little too much.

Fbodfather

There ARE differences in leather quality. (by the way...leather does not inherently smell like leather...the aroma is put in during the processing of leathter.......)

Some of the better wearing leather is 'water buffalo' -- the problem is that it has a very poor 'hand' - meaning that it does not feel like soft leather......we put it in TrailBlazer a few years back (when the new one came out) and people hated it. (including me!) It wears very well........but looks terrible. yes, you can put 'leatherette' in the seat -- but then you don't have the genuine article. We could save untold dollars by switching to leatherette-- but I don't believe that's a good idea and customers tell us the same thing. As to wearing worse than others....I think you'll find that the softer the leather, the faster wearing it is.....so it's a balance. Further, go look at the width of a Corvette seat -- and look at the bolsters -- and look at the drop..........you are going to have wear no matter what......another good example is carpet. There is only so much space where your foot impacts the carpet as you enter the car -- and it wears thru because of that.

This is not due to inferior materials or poor design. It's a matter of the design of a sports car. The customer expects heavy seat bolsters to hold them in place. They expect superior handling. They expect real leather. Unfortunately, expectations must be met -- but there is a cost and that can sometimes be issues with durability.

As to the calculation on how many people get into a Corvette at shows......most shows last a week or longer. Further, people do not get into the car like they own it. Stand back and watch. People slam themselves into the seats. Children stand on the seats. People drop food and drinks on the seats..... We even have people slash the seats and kick the dash in at one particular show. ( "hey .......it's not mine, so what the hell.........." )

In fact, I watched in horror as some young lady jumped over the barrier at one show and laid across the hood of our 1978 Corvette Indy Pace car (the real one.....) so that she could have her picture taken. You should see what the rivets in her jeans did to the hood..............

Robert_Nashville

Dear Scott,

Forgive me for raising a point of disagreement with the allmightyfather but...

In thirty years of owning many, many cars and trucks a large number of them have had leather seats and of course, except for a few of the trucks, they all had carpet and the vast majority of them have been GM vehicles with an occasional Ford or Audi and even a Dodge thrown into the mix.

Out of all those vehicles, I’ve only had one where the leather of the seat actually wore through and I’ve only had one where the carpet actually wore through…in both cases, it was my ’00 Z/28.

Now, I'm not a small guy and I know I put a lot of wear on my seats and even my carpet that other's might not but that's always been the case and while I understand the points you made above, when I look for an explanation for my experiences, it’s difficult for me to come to any reasonable conclusion other than that the leather and the carpet used in my Z/28 were either of cheap materials, poorly manufactured or poorly designed.

I realize that it’s dangerous to expand form the specific (especially one personal experience) into making broad conclusions but when I couple my own experience with what I read in the automotive press and on boards like this I can’t help but conclude that GM has a problem with the carpets and leather used in at least some of its vehicles; especially the “Vette and in F-Bodies of the recent past.

Just my $0.02

Threxx

I've seen swatch samples from quite a few vehicles and it's astounding the difference in thickness, softness, toughness, wear, as well as seeing how much of the thickness is comprised by leather vs vinyl top coating, backing, etc...

I remember seeing a swatch from a 98+ T/A's "leather" seats once and I honestly was having a hard time seeing how they could even call it leather. It was the closest to "leatherette" I've seen without it being called such. Super thin, stiff, and mostly vinyl.

centric

Having owned both C5 and F4, and having owned many other brands of cars, I can tell you, firsthand, the leather in both was the cheapest, crappiest, junkiest, well, **** ever passed off as leather.

However, the C6's I've seen don't seem to have this problem. Also, a quick search of the C6 forums supports the idea that the current Corvette isn't plagued with the same crap leather the C5 and F4s had.

The Viper guys get around the leather problem by using--you guessed it--100% synthetic materials. If there is any leather or suede on my Viper seats, I can't find it.

Wears like a champ, though.