RWD large Cadillac is back on
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,505
From: Charleston, WV
I'm sure they've looked at it. It's not happening because of sheetmetal.
A little insight to Fritz Henderson.
As you know, he's said he's not a fan of badge engineering... and he's gotten some flack from people (including me). We apparently misunderstood what he was saying.
What he apparently means is that he simply doesn't want to simply take a model of one brand, and simply rename it for another division. With the G8, I have to now agree the guy's got a point.
Think about it: A Pontiac G8 with a different nose and sent to Chevrolet showrooms as a Caprice or Monte Carlo is a text book definition of badge engineering. Forget the "GM already has badge engineering in it's ranks" point. When they came out GM wasn't going through bankruptcy, and there's a new marshall in town now. In short, that view simply doesn't wash.
He wants each division to be dramatically different from each other, despite sharing architecture (ie: Solstice & Sky, the new Lacrosse & Malibu, etc). According to GM, money is far too limited to use that way right now (new unique sheetmetal for a Caprice) and the boss says no to rebadging, and by the time they can spend for new sheet metal, it will be a few years, and they will be reday to downsize or whatever, so it doesn't make sense to them.
That's the train of thought.
Seems while the latest insight against badge engineering and division language is "New GM", the way some models get killed but over the top beancounting is still "Old GM" thinking.
A little insight to Fritz Henderson.
As you know, he's said he's not a fan of badge engineering... and he's gotten some flack from people (including me). We apparently misunderstood what he was saying.
What he apparently means is that he simply doesn't want to simply take a model of one brand, and simply rename it for another division. With the G8, I have to now agree the guy's got a point.
Think about it: A Pontiac G8 with a different nose and sent to Chevrolet showrooms as a Caprice or Monte Carlo is a text book definition of badge engineering. Forget the "GM already has badge engineering in it's ranks" point. When they came out GM wasn't going through bankruptcy, and there's a new marshall in town now. In short, that view simply doesn't wash.
He wants each division to be dramatically different from each other, despite sharing architecture (ie: Solstice & Sky, the new Lacrosse & Malibu, etc). According to GM, money is far too limited to use that way right now (new unique sheetmetal for a Caprice) and the boss says no to rebadging, and by the time they can spend for new sheet metal, it will be a few years, and they will be reday to downsize or whatever, so it doesn't make sense to them.
That's the train of thought.
Seems while the latest insight against badge engineering and division language is "New GM", the way some models get killed but over the top beancounting is still "Old GM" thinking.
So they aren't just delaying the announcement since it would be nearly a year away?
What about the Police version? Is it a no go as well?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
The big issue is volume. To be honest, I see the car not going public as a plus.
Situation.
The Caprice sold in Chevrolet showrooms will without a doubt (IMHO) sell in higher numbers than the G8 managed to. Combine this with the police vehicles which will almost certain to at least match Pontiac's G8 sales, that could becaome a major issue for a GM sensitive to being viewed as outsourcing production to other countries after being raked over the coals over it's plans to increase US cars made in China.
Bob Lutz has made it extremely clear that there will be other vehicles imported from Holden, just not right now (Caprice could have very well been here by the start of next year). They are still trying to come up with a plan to utilize Holden.
My predictions?
Keeping the Commodore a Police Only vehicle (it might simply be imported as Holden Commodores, not Chevrolet) makes the return of Chevrolet El Caminos more likely. The "Caprice" (at least 1 other name was considered) would have essentially crowded everything else out made at Elizabeth City, and made US Ute production extremely unlikely. But limiting the US Commodore to police sales and the fact the G8 GT actually was approved, and a mere weeks from civillian "Job One" (a couple were made for show & press), I'd venture it makes an El Camino a stronger possibility than it was before.
I also suspect.... strongly suspect.... perhaps even certain.... we'll see a Holden made Buick Roadmaster imported from either China, Korea, or Australia. The Statesman (Caprice in the Middle East) is already sold as a Buick in China, and it was only the pushback of a few mega-dealers in the Northeast and northern Midwest (Michigan anyone?) that prevented us from having one in Buick showrooms this very moment.
Last edited by guionM; Jul 23, 2009 at 11:47 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,505
From: Charleston, WV
Police version is still on. This was a plan from early on (I even started a thread about it when I saw what I was told in print).
The big issue is volume. To be honest, I see the car not going public as a plus.
Situation.
The Caprice sold in Chevrolet showrooms will without a doubt (IMHO) sell in higher numbers than the G8 managed to. Combine this with the police vehicles which will almost certain to at least match Pontiac's G8 sales, that could becaome a major issue for a GM sensitive to being viewed as outsourcing production to other countries after being raked over the coals over it's plans to increase US cars made in China.
Bob Lutz has made it extremely clear that there will be other vehicles imported from Holden, just not right now (Caprice could have very well been here by the start of next year). They are still trying to come up with a plan to utilize Holden.
My predictions?
Keeping the Commodore a Police Only vehicle (it might simply be imported as Holden Commodores, not Chevrolet) makes the return of Chevrolet El Caminos more likely. The "Caprice" (at least 1 other name was considered) would have essentially crowded everything else out made at Elizabeth City, and made US Ute production extremely unlikely. But limiting the US Commodore to police sales and the fact the G8 GT actually was approved, and a mere weeks from civillian "Job One" (a couple were made for show & press), I'd venture it makes an El Camino a stronger possibility than it was before.
The big issue is volume. To be honest, I see the car not going public as a plus.
Situation.
The Caprice sold in Chevrolet showrooms will without a doubt (IMHO) sell in higher numbers than the G8 managed to. Combine this with the police vehicles which will almost certain to at least match Pontiac's G8 sales, that could becaome a major issue for a GM sensitive to being viewed as outsourcing production to other countries after being raked over the coals over it's plans to increase US cars made in China.
Bob Lutz has made it extremely clear that there will be other vehicles imported from Holden, just not right now (Caprice could have very well been here by the start of next year). They are still trying to come up with a plan to utilize Holden.
My predictions?
Keeping the Commodore a Police Only vehicle (it might simply be imported as Holden Commodores, not Chevrolet) makes the return of Chevrolet El Caminos more likely. The "Caprice" (at least 1 other name was considered) would have essentially crowded everything else out made at Elizabeth City, and made US Ute production extremely unlikely. But limiting the US Commodore to police sales and the fact the G8 GT actually was approved, and a mere weeks from civillian "Job One" (a couple were made for show & press), I'd venture it makes an El Camino a stronger possibility than it was before.
I also suspect.... strongly suspect.... perhaps even certain.... we'll see a Holden made Buick Roadmaster imported from either China, Korea, or Australia. The Statesman (Caprice in the Middle East) is already sold as a Buick in China, and it was only the pushback of a few mega-dealers in the Northeast and northern Midwest (Michigan anyone?) that prevented us from having one in Buick showrooms this very moment.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
A little insight to Fritz Henderson.
As you know, he's said he's not a fan of badge engineering... and he's gotten some flack from people (including me). We apparently misunderstood what he was saying.
As you know, he's said he's not a fan of badge engineering... and he's gotten some flack from people (including me). We apparently misunderstood what he was saying.
A more politically correct way of putting it would be to ask Henderson if they are considering "restyling" the G8 as a Chevy, in which case he'd probably answer that it's being studied. (Which also fits with what Lutz said in his blog post.)
Dunno what Buickman thought, but this car could easily come in at $40K+, so I can understand why Buick dealers might be reluctant.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Regarding the police car, I'm not actually convinced that there's a profitable business case for it. IIRC, CV's and Chargers are selling in the $23-$25K range from the manufacturers. Roughly what G8's are going for if you factor all of the incentives. If GM's not going to make money on it, well....
Once you've gotten past that though, if you were running a purchasing agency for a town/county/state, how would you feel about signing off on the purchase of a low volume car, made in a far away land, with a shakey future?
I don't know. Sounds like an uphill battle.
Once you've gotten past that though, if you were running a purchasing agency for a town/county/state, how would you feel about signing off on the purchase of a low volume car, made in a far away land, with a shakey future?
I don't know. Sounds like an uphill battle.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,448
From: Irving, TX
The link here...
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/07/...as-buying.html
Which was posted on another thread here, seems to suggest that it won't come over as a police vehicle either.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/07/...as-buying.html
Which was posted on another thread here, seems to suggest that it won't come over as a police vehicle either.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Ironic that you bring this up.
Page 22 of the new September "Automobile" magazine talk about that very subject. And they bring up pretty much every issue that I have with the car.
1. The exact same thing you yourself bring up regarding the Commodore Police car GM is planing to sell here. Carbon is a new company with an extremely shaky future since it's a startup.
2. Police cars are sold to taxi companies or civilians when law enforcement agancies are done with them, earning the government agency some money back on it's investment. The idea is to simply recycle the Carbon.... as in junk and scrap.
3. The price Carbon is predicting they will sell the E7 (the car's name) for simply doesn't add up considering what they intend to have on it, let alone how it's constructed.
4. Parts will either be a nightmare or will be highly expensive since it's coming from a single source that makes no cars for the civilian market that spreads out the expense.
There's alot more, and the editorial is excellent. But any negative issue you may have with the logic of GM bringing the Commodore over here, multiply it by 1000-fold. When you look at everything, including the volume they plan on selling versus how much they will likely make per vehicle, you get the feeling there is no way in the world the Carbon is going to have a snowballs chance in hell in the police market up against a Charger or Commodore ...... unless Carbon also sells it as a civilian car.
A conclusion Automobile's Ezra Dyer also reaches.
Page 22 of the new September "Automobile" magazine talk about that very subject. And they bring up pretty much every issue that I have with the car.
1. The exact same thing you yourself bring up regarding the Commodore Police car GM is planing to sell here. Carbon is a new company with an extremely shaky future since it's a startup.
2. Police cars are sold to taxi companies or civilians when law enforcement agancies are done with them, earning the government agency some money back on it's investment. The idea is to simply recycle the Carbon.... as in junk and scrap.
3. The price Carbon is predicting they will sell the E7 (the car's name) for simply doesn't add up considering what they intend to have on it, let alone how it's constructed.
4. Parts will either be a nightmare or will be highly expensive since it's coming from a single source that makes no cars for the civilian market that spreads out the expense.
There's alot more, and the editorial is excellent. But any negative issue you may have with the logic of GM bringing the Commodore over here, multiply it by 1000-fold. When you look at everything, including the volume they plan on selling versus how much they will likely make per vehicle, you get the feeling there is no way in the world the Carbon is going to have a snowballs chance in hell in the police market up against a Charger or Commodore ...... unless Carbon also sells it as a civilian car.
A conclusion Automobile's Ezra Dyer also reaches.
Last edited by guionM; Jul 23, 2009 at 07:53 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Regarding the police car, I'm not actually convinced that there's a profitable business case for it. IIRC, CV's and Chargers are selling in the $23-$25K range from the manufacturers. Roughly what G8's are going for if you factor all of the incentives. If GM's not going to make money on it, well....
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Lexus plans 1-Series rival
Lexus plans 1-Series rival
Lexus is set to launch a five-door compact hatchback at September’s Frankfurt motor show.
24 July 2009
Although Lexus won’t officially confirm as much yet, Autocar can reveal the concept that’s a close match for the car it’ll offer up against BMW’s 1-series and Audi’s A3 in 2010.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...s-rival-82246/
Lexus is set to launch a five-door compact hatchback at September’s Frankfurt motor show.
24 July 2009
Although Lexus won’t officially confirm as much yet, Autocar can reveal the concept that’s a close match for the car it’ll offer up against BMW’s 1-series and Audi’s A3 in 2010.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...s-rival-82246/
Implied: Cadillac shouldn't wait until Lexus has a product in a new segment before offering its own version because by then it could be too late. It must be quick to offer models that compete head-on with the luxury German marques.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Cadillac has little choice but to be in the same game as BMW, Merc given Lexus is also a willing player.
Implied: Cadillac shouldn't wait until Lexus has a product in a new segment before offering its own version because by then it could be too late. It must be quick to offer models that compete head-on with the luxury German marques.
Implied: Cadillac shouldn't wait until Lexus has a product in a new segment before offering its own version because by then it could be too late. It must be quick to offer models that compete head-on with the luxury German marques.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Eh...Carbon motors sounds like a good idea, and if they use common parts, it shouldnt be a problem.
They need to source parts from the Big 3 in ordre to make it work. Hub bearings lets say a Charger, a GM 160 amp alternator, etc etc.
If they could do that, outsource parts from more common vehicles, then it could work. The only problem would come from replacing body pannels, and what to do with them when they are no longer in service
E7 has a better chance. I do a lot of work for police departments, and many of them have brought up the car and are very very interested in it. They said that by the time they jam it with aftermarket equipment, the cost skyrockets.
They need to source parts from the Big 3 in ordre to make it work. Hub bearings lets say a Charger, a GM 160 amp alternator, etc etc.
If they could do that, outsource parts from more common vehicles, then it could work. The only problem would come from replacing body pannels, and what to do with them when they are no longer in service
E7 has a better chance. I do a lot of work for police departments, and many of them have brought up the car and are very very interested in it. They said that by the time they jam it with aftermarket equipment, the cost skyrockets.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
