Health care in this country is not broke. We have some of the most advanced health care in the world. Health business on the other hand, not so much.

There is a solution. We start letting insurance companies compete. We have a minimal amount of companies compared to population. And the companies are capped by Government. Uncapping would be a good start.

If memory serves, Sweden just turned down Social healthcare.

 

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/health/pd083101a.html I just found a link, check it out.

 

I'm 100% for the competition in this market, BUT I want the care to be equal in quality and safety, and that's where the government will have to stay a player.

Would you have your brain tumor removed by some quack in his basement?
Probably not. You and I both see that that would be a rediculous thing to do.
Yet, if the processes are not regulated by some entity, it could happen.
There is already a HUGE rash of people doing plastic surgeries in clinics and outpatient settings where anything can (and has) gone wrong - including the practicing surgeon not even having a college degree, much less a license to practice. It's amazing what people will do to save money or get medical help when they need it so desperately.

I say let's bid the work out between "qualified shops".

Let's also stop allowing hostile takeovers of small or start-up medical providers by the giants - that will go far to PROMOTE competition, not hinder it IMO.
Right now, Novant Health owns the 3 hospital closest to me, so no matter where I go, THEY WILL get my money.

I don't want big brother telling me where I have to go and what I can have done, but I think we do need big brother to be sure everyone plays the game safely and honestly.

 

Ofcourse not, but it IS the reason we're currently at a competetive disadvantage with countries that do, and it would make things a lot more level in buisness.Though I'm not sure I want to grow the Gov't any larger, wait in lines for surgery, or have little to no choice of my care giver.

But one thing is certain, no amount of; labor cost reduction, downsizing, or outsourcing will be enough to counter the rapidly rising costs of healthcare.

The costs must be addressed directly, Insurance companies, negociating medical bills down to a fraction of the amount owed, just forces care givers to raise fees to compensate.


But was it enough...neither will another $3 Billion...for long.
No amount of concessions by the UAW will fix this problem, that's one thing that frustrates me when I keep hearing how the UAW is killing the Big 3...it may be a symptom, but not the cause.


I believe this to be true, the problem has grown out of control, and need some laws/rules changes to get back on track, just like all other buisness conducted here.
It's funny how we never have enough tax money/support for things like supporting our schools or above, but it falls from the sky for these Corporate Wars. Our priorities have become twisted...
If people were made responsible tommorow, without changing costs, many people would die b/c they can't afford even the medications they need, even now Medicare/Medicaid under-funds elderly people so much that many are forced to decide which medications they can or can't live without...I know b/c some are related to me.

Exactly...

 

You know, we've all heard about the $500 toilet seat that was bought by the US Army. That's absurd. And we wondered why our defense budgets were being cut.

Well, my mom just had neck surgery last Wednesday - she had C2, C3, and C4 aligned, friction pads inserted to replace worn cartiledge, and then the discs were anchored in place with a plate and screws. She went to the hospital at 8am last Wednesday for pre-op, surgery from 11:30-1:15, she was in her room at 5pm, walked to the bathroom under her own power at 7pm, and they discharged her at 4pm Thursday. That's less than 48 hours in hospital care (more like 30 hrs) for major spinal surgery. D@MN.

Hospital beds are renting weekly for what 2400sq-ft furnished houses are monthly in my area. And that's with no care or services - just the bed fee. Did THAT have something to do with it? No beds were open in that neuro-surgical ward.

Wanna talk absurd... who the flock would pay $4 for 2 Tylenol tablets?!?!
When I can buy 50 Tylenol tablets at a store for $2.79, why the heck can hospitals charge insurance companies $4 for 2 of them?

I get soft parts and castings X-rayed for my job frequently for $5-10 each depending on resolution or size of the part. But when I get bite-wing x-rays at the dentist they are $110... how the heck is that?!?!

These are some of the areas where I think action needs to be taken immediately to bring costs in-line. The "violation" is as obvious as the $500 toilet seat to me.

My point is, there is low-hanging fruit that is an easy grab and can make big impacts on the costs of healthcare.
Why aren't some of these being addressed?
It has nothing to do with "socialized" or "managed" heathcare systems... it has MORE to do with running a monopoly and not having a system of checks and balances in play.

 

I talked to my Doctor about the high prices once, his reasons were that the ^&#$#! Insurance companies cut them so bad, they have figured out what to charge to get what they really need.
Hospitals are just insane...we paid $12ea for 2 Tylenol-3's, and after my insurance paid for their part of a CT scan of mine, I still owed over $1,800...for less than 10 minutes work!..I was billed by everyone I was in contact with, and billed for everything down to every Kleenex that was used.

I guess that's how they fund their secret projects.

I know I worked with a guy in the Air Force, and his CO told them in order to keep their funding they had to get rid of their current tools and order new ones...something like, "I'm going to lunch and when I get back all these tools had better be gone!"..
The way the Policy is set up, if they don't need funding this year, it's near impossible to get it next year.

 

Prices like these are a DIRECT result of mandated insurance. When people don't see these prices (due to insurance), they don't care what they are. They only care about out-of-pocket expenses.

I'll say it before, I'll say it again--we do not want or need state-run health care. Why do you think some of the most popular advertising in London is for paid-care health services offering better quality of service or guaranteed response times (like, when the state-run hospital can't get you in for 8 weeks)? Why do you think Sweden, socialist hotbed of the planet, just rejected state-run healthcare? Why do you think Depression-era mothers in this country could spend 6 weeks in the hospital recovering from childbirth--and do it multiple times without the cost being onerous?

We had the best healthcare system in the world 30-40 years ago, when people paid DIRECTLY for most small health needs, and had insurance only for catastrophic coverage. This is the system that works. This is the system we need to get back to.

 

The are a lot of reaons why the above happen and there is no one easy solution but you illustrate the exact problem some of us are talking about.

Despite all the unerlying causes, if the patient actually had to write a check for the $4 Tylenol or $150 x-rays maybe before he/she wrote the check he/she would raise holly hell about the ridiculous prices and force the medical community to charge fees that actually make some sense...even more, were I going to a Dentist who refused to lower his prices I'd look for one who was more reasonable and put the overcharging idiot out of business.

Government can not solve the problem you described above (and would probably only make it worse); free market pressure from consummers can solve it.

 

Make sure you get rid of EMTALA and any other mandates to treat anybody that cannot pay so that it will be more like the good old days.

 

I certainly don't dispute your point - I agree with you. It is not government's job to answer for a $4 pill.

But what "system" is there in place to refute these activities?

If my health plan at work only allows me to go to certain doctors in the network, and they all charge the same agreed-to rates, what can I do?
I guarantee I won't get cheaper prices without a health care plan at all.

You see, I want some kind of check and balance that we can actually apply to our plans.
I don't have the answer myself, I just know what some of the problem is.

 

What you say as I joke I see some value in...

A person is not entitled to unlimited health care simply because they haven't assumed room temperature...there has to be a balance between charity and personal responsibility...there are far too many people in this country who think they are "owed" or "deserve" certain things whether they can pay for them or not.

I don't mind giving to charity so they can help conver the health care costs of those who are truly destitute but I very much object to having my money taken from me through the medical community/hospitials who charge me higher prices to cover the free care they are forced by law to give.

 

I ran my hand into a tablesaw last Thanksgiving, and for an hour of surgery (a couple screws and a few dozen stitches) and a few hours in the ER, the tab came to right around $10K. Toss in another $4K or so for follow-up. Now, my HSA covered the first $3K of that, but the insurance company still got stuck with $11K. That's why HDHCs don't offer a substantial savings over traditional low-deductable plans.

So, take overpriced health care and add in the fact that insurance companies aren't exactly doing their jobs for free, and it doesn't really matter whether there's some relatively minor tweaking of deductable costs - insurance is frickin' expensive.

 

Company plans don't give people a lot of choice anymore, they must see Care Givers that supposedly agreed to lower prices for plan patients, then as you said, everybody else gets stuck paying for those discounts from $4 Tylenols etc...

 

Actually, poverty programs did work. The poverty rate from 1965 to 1971 dropped to the lowest level in history at that point. The things that ruined it were Vietnam and policies that began in the 1970s of releasing mentally handicapped people from wards who posed no risk to themselves or others.

Lyndon Johnson and then Richard Nixon kept funneling money into the Vietnam war (which was more expensive than the "poverty programs") and instead of raising taxes or cutting programs to fund it, we simply started printing more money. This fueled inflation in the early 70s, and combined with taking things too far, the cost of these programs spiraled out of control. One of the fallout was hospitals releasing mental patients who posed no danger to themselves or society. No one though far enough ahead to figure how these people would support themselves, and to this very day they form the core of the homeless.


They are doing that now, and look where we are.


When you look at the health care costs of every other westernized nation, and look at it here in the US, the US has the problem. At the same time, the US has the least regulated healthcare industry of any westernized nation as is.

Again, a theory that sounds great on paper, but the results we already have don't bear that out.

As retired military, I'm covered by the VA. My father who's currently dying of cancer is being covered by the VA. So I think I know a bit more about VA hospitals than what John Q. Public half listening to a sensationalist news story might know. Given that the administration has been attempting to cut funds for the VA for years, the care there is still very good (in the case of my dad, nearly great)... far better than what I've seen from HMOs.

Given the choice of going with an HMO who decides what proceedures to pay for and where to leave you on your own, and as a business, whose FIRST goal is to make substantial profits for shareholders, I rather have health care based on what I need & what's best for me according to my doctor.

It's great to have an ideology, and it's fine to be consistant in ones beliefs. But the notion that the government should stay out of healthcare and that everyone should fend for themselves is pretty irresponsible if not just dowright cold. We aren't talking about some lazy bum on the streets (they're covered already!), prisoners in jails (they're covered too!) or even career government workers (already covered!). We're talking about people who work hard, pay taxes, have & families who aren't lucky enough to be in lockdown, live on the streets, or have a government job.

Finally:IT IS AGAINST THE LAW to turn away people from emergency care.

If they can't pay, the cost will be recouped through those that can. At least with some type of regulations, prices can be contained. Combine that with some form of national insurence that takes the cost burden off of business, and we'll be able to compete with other nations.

Again, I don't think anyone (including me) is advocating the type of British health care system from the 1970s and 80s that resulted in waiting lines for surgeries, and crushing costs. We're talking about government oversight and forced accountability on costs and a co-pay minimal insurence that takes the burden off of business.

If we can shovel $55 billion a year directly and another $10-20 billion annually into indirect costs of that money rat-hole called Iraq without worrying about tax increases, I suspect we can take what likely will amount to $5-10 billion max (combined with reining in health care costs) and put it towards something that will both take care of it's citizens and get our industries back into global competition with other countries generating more money (and taxable income) for our country.


Sorry if I get preachy on this subject, but this is something I believe strongly in since I myself am still here and in one piece because of government health care (thank God you don't pay for health care in the military), and have seen 1st hand the benefits of national health care and/or regulations in other countries.

 

Yes…it;s worked so well we now have multi-generations who have never known anything but a government check for sitting on their collective asses; it’s worked so well that we have to have millions of illegal aliens invade our country to do the work Americans use to do but will do no longer so long as Uncle Sam pays them enough to do nothing at all.

I don’t disagree much with your assessment of the homeless population but I’ve worked with the homeless enough over the years that I can also say that there is a significant percentage who simply won’t live any other way…turning out those who couldn’t take care of themselves was a mistake but they are a tiny portion of the “poor”…most of the poor are so because they won’t do anything to improve their own lives.


I’ve no clue how an alleged lack of government regulation (which I don’t happen to buy into) has anything at all to do with my point that you quoted…we don’t need government regulations; we need the consumer involved in paying for his healthcare rather than being totally insulated from it.

Why should a person give a flip how much an X-ray costs or how much his Doctor charges compared to a Doctor two doors down when the patient pays the same $20 either way? The reason we “have the results we have” is not because the free- market isn’t working; it’s precisely because the free-market has been totally removed from the process.


If you think the VA is free to do anything it wants or provide any procedure it wants at any cost or that it is anywhere near the quality of private healthcare then you’ve could not have had much experience with private healthcare.

The last thing our industry or our country needs is more government and that is especially true of healthcare…the free-market works and works exceedingly well when its allowed to do so; government “help” will ultimately be anything but.

Sorry if my thinking that people need to take responsibility for themselves seems “cold” but I firmly believe that if you don’t work you don’t eat – industry (auto or otherwise) and individuals need to stop looking to the government to solve their problems and get up off their behinds and go solve their own.

We shoudl probably agree to disagree on this one...there is absoluely nothing you could say that will ever convince me the government is that answer to this (or almost any other) problem.