merc50

Which took longer to hit the street, the Camaro or the SSR? Anybody know?

guionM

ssr.

guionM

Don't think of it as "Cheapening". It's not like they are going to take a great chassis and fill it full of mush.

Cost needs to come out before it can become a Camaro. It's that simple, and non-negotiable. A chassis designed for a $40K cars isn't going to make an $19K Camaro.

Sure, there will be areas where some expensive items will be jettisoned in favor of more cost efficient items. However, if the vehicle that results is better than the current Camaro, then not only is it going in the right direction, it's also the right move.

SRFCTY

Does this mean expensive "lighter weight" items will be jettisoned in favor of more cost efficient "heavier" items?

And shouldn't there be more of a focus on Chevy (i.e. a new Impala and Malibu), since it is the sales volume leader at GM?

Z284ever

I guess that all depends on which arbitrary "starting point" you'd want to use.

Z284ever

Let's not forget that we're talking about Cadillac's entry level car here. It certainly won't start at $40K. In fact, it'll probably undercut a base 3 Series and A4. The 1 Series starts at $29,000, the 3 Series starts at $32,850. Pick a number in between those two and that's where the ATS will probably start price-wise.

I also don't think a 6th gen Camaro will be had for anywhere near 19G's either. Mid 20's will be more like it and going straight up from there.

ATS will carry a premium of course, but I think it and the Camaro will have enough pricing overlap to share the same architecture effectively.

formula79

We will have to wait till things or more firm before I start drinking the Koolaid of a Cadillac chassis underpining a Camaro and meeting size targets. Over the years we have heard Sigma was supposed to be able to fit the size and cost requirements of the Camaro and it never did. Then we got the Zeta Camaro, which barely fit's price requirements, but nowhere fits size requirements. GM probaly does not know how much cost and size bandwidth Alpha will have just yet.

Josh452

Cost will NOT come out of Alpha before it gets to Chevy.......instead, Cadillac will make its $$$ back on the program and move onto the next new small architecture before it gives up Alpha.

When I say that, I don't mean that Alpha will simply move from Cadillac and become all a sudden a Chevy car........it will take years, and Alpha will stick around for a bit before it gets handed down to other brands.

They are going to make the $$$$ of Alpha via Cadillac before its handed down.

Z284ever

It's safe to say that Alpha will be Cadillac's highest volume program. Sedan, coupe, convertible, V, RWD, AWD, maybe even a little wagon. Somewhere in there will also come a Camaro. Sounds like you could keep a whole factory busy making these things. Yeah, they'll make lots of money on this if it'll deliver the goods. It better...

teal98

They should have a pretty good idea.

BTW, Sigma and Zeta are pretty close in size and weight.

guionM

I think it will be more along the lines of a sophisticated (and pricey) LSA or double wishbone suspension jettisoned in favor of struts.

Good point. One could arguably say that the 5th gen has been under development for a decade since the input and studies on it were more or less done, redone, and done again since the late 90s.

However, if you go by when GM actually decided to commit money to develop a vehicle (approval), Camaro took less time than the SSR.

I gotta disagree with you on this. Based on today's money, GM will in fact keep the base Camaro competitive with the Mustang (and even the Genesis coupe), right at the $19K-21K level. You will still be able to option them up as much as you want to whatever cost, but they still have to at least break even at a very low pricepoint.


a. The Camaro nails the size requirement.
It's 190.4 X 75.5 X 54... Mustang is 188 X 74 X 55.6. Camaro looks deceptively large because it has an unusually high beltline and massive wheels. The Chrysler 300 is slightly smaller than the Impala, also looks has the illusion of looking bigger... again, because of a high beltline and massive wheels.

b. It's a smart move waiting for things to firm up.
But there is no doubt and plenty of evidence that once Camaro does leave Zeta (which won't be for some time, my guess... at least 5 years) unless there is an evolution of Camaro's Zeta chassis the only place for Camaro to go is on something based on the Alpha or a spinoff of it.

c. Sigma was never was made within cost and size requirements of Camaro.
Sigma was first and formost, a Cadillac chassis. Because GM wasn't considering the Holden VT chassis as the basis of the 5th gen, the Sigma was the only game in town, and that's where the effort went to. In the end, Sigma simply couldn't be made to fit within the cost calculus of what was expected for a Camaro. Combined with the rest of the "Perfect Storm" of reasons to discontinue the F-body, the whole program was killed off.... as everyone involved has said "Until the right chassis comes along for the Camaro"

guionM

I don't think so.

1. There's no other RWD chassis on the horizon.
2. This Alpha chassis will be around for a very long time... even Sigma is a decade old.
3. More money will be made on the program the more volume it gets, even after costs is taken out.
4. Cadillac no longer has an exclusive lock on any chassis.

Finally, Cost of Manufacture is the issue here, not earning back any development costs. If you need a quick lesson on it's importance, look up the MN12 and the DEW. Both were supposed to become Mustangs. Both didn't simply because the the cost to manufacture each would have driven up the price of the Mustang.

The D2C is essentially a decontented DEW that is made to accept the Ford modular engine between the fenders instead of the smaller Jaguar-based version. Up front, struts replace double wishbone suspension. Out back, a live axle replaces the rear double wishbones and subframe holding the whole IRS package together.

The investment in the DEW structure (mainly the floorpan and the basic front substructure) carried over into the Mustang's D2C. The high per unit price of the suspensions meant that it was limited to cars that could be priced to cover the costs of these parts: Lincolns, 2 passenger Thunderbirds, and Jaguars.

The Alpha is being made as a take-no-prisoners 3-series beater. It's also going to have all those brag parts (items that owners can brag about where 99% of the same results could be achieved with a lower cost part...ie: strut front suspension vs double wishbone).

If Camaro (or any other "volume" sedan) comes off Alpha, safe bets:

1. It will be some degree a modification of Cadillac's Alpha.
2. Cadillac will still have the original in it's showrooms when these spinoffs come out.

Z284ever

If you go by the date GM "officially" approved the Camaro, it took abit less than 3 years for it to reach showrooms. Of course, we both know that alot work had already been done previous to that.


I don't really see either Mustang or Camaro going down in price on their next gen cars. The Camaro's current base price is $22,680 BTW, not that it matters much, since most are leaving the showroom deeply into the $30's.



I was told by more than one person very early on in Camaro's development, that the car they were planning would be quite abit smaller than what we got. Let's say 185-ish inches long. Just abit smaller than the concept.

Camaro needs to wait it's turn behind Cadillac getting the bulk of it's Alphas. It's all a matter of timing now. Could be 5 years. I've also heard less. But who the heck knows anymore.

turbo200

in order to fully bring down Audi, BMW, MB, they need to pay strict attention to detail, quality, and design as usual. going to the cadillac stand this year at the la auto show was a disappointment, other than the stunning and stimulating and amazing knockout converj, their stand was very disappointing. visually, the SRX and converj should represent the future of caddy, moreso caddy. the design theme as seen on CTS needs to move forward, since CTS shares some visual cues with DTS [mostly in the front end].

worldwide, cars are all starting to look the same [underneath the metal]. quality, attention to detail, and the design representation are more critical than ever. this is especially true in caddy's market. the converj is the bar they have to meet in every product they release. it is a fantastic success from every angle, and i love the grille work, it needs to be implemented fast on every caddy.

quality and attention to detail were missing in the SRX I sat in. i didn't get to sit in the front seat so I cannot comment on interior quality from a driver's perspective, but leather quality was low, the center armrest was cheesy, the door panels were lacking in detail. in short, they need to study audi and mb and what makes them impressive, and become them.

Big Als Z

Agreed. I hope that this ATS is more then just a great handling vehicle. Attention needs to be paid to the interior as much as the handling and ride. I think it needs to break some heavy ground technology wise. Maybe a standard OLED assisted dash and HVAC/Radio set up. Its ont he G8, it should be standard on all Caddys.
SRX has a good start with the LED screen in the IP. Expand on that perhaps.
Leather, suede (or microfiber alternative for cleaning) should be used. The ATS's quality and luxury internal bench mark needs to be the current CTS. It needs to exceed the CTS in every way.