They are 6 years apart, but these cars are unfortunately not very different. Same platform, same tranny.

First, consider that the 26k for a Lucern buys the absolute base model. That's cloth seats, most basic suspension, no options (stuff like vehicle remotes and 6-way power seats are extra). Remember that base Bonneville you drove a while back and hated? Yeah, that's the $26,000 Lucerne. Additionally, consider that car sticker prices, particularly GM car stickers, have not exactly been on the up and up. My 2000 GTP cost 27,000 (minus 0% financing). Today's Grand Prix GT starting price? $25,350. 2001 Buick Regal LS MSRP: $22,845. 2007 Buick LaCrosse CX MSRP: $23,035

Part of the issue for Olds was that they ended up swallowing most of these developement costs. These were the days before global GM. Divisions we're still acting like feifdoms. And just because the tehcnology did not work on the Olds is no excuse for its successor, the Lucerne, to offer an inferior setup.

This was essentially my point. The Olds was in no way shape or form a class leader in 2001 - everyone knows that. If it was, than Olds would still exist. I offered the Buick as a comparison to show that 5 years later, GM is trying to compete with the same damn car, but one equipped with older componentry. Why did Buick get to survive?

 

LaNeve's statements are revisionist history and at the time were designed to appease and reassure Buick and Pontiac dealers as the "Damaged Brand" headlines were still making their rounds.

GM's US sales did not fall off because Oldsmobile was phased out. GM sold just as many vehicles last year as they did in 1996. The issue with Old going into the phase out announcement was that the brands volume was fleet.

You asked where all the Oldmobile people went? They are still there but today are buying GM's other fleet queens in the form of the Grand Prix, Malibu etc.

When GM decided to axe Olds, they made a point to make up that volume with the other divisions with new product. At the time, the Vue, Avalanche and Rendevouse certainly made up for the loss of Olds. The problem for GM was their traditional core product in each of the divisions did not meet expectations and to keep the plants running because of the UAW agreements GM again became reliant of fleet to move cars and profitability tanked.

The question that needs to be asked is, could GM afford Olds today? If the decision was not make to axe Olds in 2000, it certainly would have been made in 2005.

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, let me first say that I'm biased. Yes, I'm an Olds fan. I come from an Olds family. My first car was a 100,000 mile hand me down from my father - a 1970, Delta 88 Holiday Coupe. It had that Oldsmobile Rocket V8 burble (yes, a trained ear could hear an Olds V8), and could convert black rubber into blue smoke effortlessly. I miss that car alot.

There was a time when Oldsmobiles were much more avant-garde than Buicks, Chevys or even most Pontiacs. They were sporty in a classy way. They were motivated by a legendary engine...the Rocket V8. They had alot going for them. Mentioning the word Oldsmobile conjured up images similar to what a modern Audi or Infiniti would today.

By the time Oldsmobile was killed, I guess some division had to die. It really didn't matter much if it were Olds, Buick or even Pontiac. But Olds management, especially after Rock, were an especially bumbling bunch of idiots, who had no understanding or sympathy for the Oldsmobile brand that they were representing and no ability to defend it. Instead of revelling in the rich and enviable Olds heritage at their disposal, they were somehow, stupidly ashamed of it and wanted to hide from it. Why does that matter now? Because only one division was gonna die. And if the Olds brand managers actually had two working neurons, held together by a single spirochete , they could have mounted an adequate enough defense, so that Buick would have bitten the dust, not Olds.

As to the question of whether I'd consider buying an Olds if they were around? Of course I would - and so would my dad.

 

I agree with this. The only thing Buick has going for it that Oldsmodbile didn't is that it didn't have "Old" in the title.

Olds got great turnaround products but they paid for them, Olds alone footed the bill for a lot of the engine and other development in those cars, which hurt them.

Add to that, marketing was bumbled... "Like always. Like never before..." Is infinetely better than, "Not your fathers Oldsmobile... For numerous reasons.

 

And Saturn is slotted exactly where Olds was - above Pontiac but with a modern flair.

As an aside, what ever happened to the 3.5? Too expensive to make?

 

Gotta disagree with you on this point, Dave. Saturn's demographics are younger, and the cars Saturn is selling is cheaper. Oldsmobile would never have a Sky. I can see where you would equate the Aura with Olds in fancy styling & chrome, but where something like the Aura might be on par with a Regency, because of it's smaller size and Saturn's buyer profile (heavily import oriented), it's customer is going to be totally different.

 

....And still irrelevent. If you want to compare the 2, compare the Buick model for that year and the Oldsmobile model for that year. GM had to make decisions based on what was available that year, as did customers. Comparing a 2001 model and a 2007 is like saying your decision you make today should be based on events from 2000.


In the early 1960s, Oldsmobile & Pontiac came out with midsized cars that had IRS, alumunum V8s, OHC straight 6s, turbochargers, and Corvairs also had fully independent suspension, alumunum engines & turbos. All were so-called "superior" setups. Yet just a few years later, the midsize cars were replaced with new models with solid axles & leaf springs, turbos were gone, aluminum V8 tooling was sold to another maker as was the V6, and the comparitively primitive Camaro replaced the Corvair.

You say that because the tecnology didn't work is no reason to offer an inferior setup in it's successor. It's not inferior if it can do the same job, cost less money, and is more efficient. Automotive history is littered with the corpses of "superior" setups.


And you made the exact point that Evoke made above and that I made in my post: Oldsmobile was sinking and GM decided to roll buyers into other cars that were already in production. Whether that be Buick, Pontiac, or GMC.

Again, Buick survived because it had perhaps the highest Buyer loyalty of all GM products. Oldsmobile, as shown by dropping sales, did not.

 

Aurora and Intrigue were both vehicles designed in the same vein as the Aura. They were meant to be legitimate contenders and grab import intenders. The Aurora had its UFO-like styling, DOHC engine. Intrigue had the "autobahn" package, with 12" rotors (still a popular upgrade for Grand Prix owners). Neither had a look geared towards the older demographic, although this segment of Olds buyers did keep buying them. Again to compare to Buick's path with LaCrosse and Lucerne, Olds didn't coddle its old buyers with faceless styling. Both had interiors far better than what the rest of GM was producing. They were supposed to be import grabbers.

Of course, both cars had abysmal reputations as far as quality goes. It's important to remember Oldsmobile in the context of what GM was at the time. If Saturn had gotten the ax, people would say that the producer of injection molded economy cars could never produce a legitimate mid-size sedan.

Honestly, I'm not an Oldmobile mourner. It died, so be it. The only aspect that really bothers me is that they, of all GM brands, tried to do things "right" before anyone within GM knew what "right" was. They took chances on design, focused on engineering. GM at that time was not ready to back an effort like Oldsmobile's, and the brand ended up paying for it. So did the consumer. As I've been pointing out, the latest generation of Buicks don't compare well with the Oldsmobiles designed almost a decade earlier. Buick lived because it didn't take any chances. Olds died because they spent money on a product revolution and never got reinforcement.

 

It's not relevant that Buick is still basically selling a 2001 Olds Aurora? Is any other entry lux brand still selling what they did 5 years ago?


Yep, those DOHC engines went by the wayside with the death of Oldsmobile. The LaCrosse and Lucerne's twenty year-old base 3800 V6 does a great job competing against the likes of Toyota Avalon, which foolishly goes with the more costly, less efficient "superior" setup.

So the brand that has taken zero risks, sells cars on ancient chassis to a market of ancient people was deemed to have a worthy future. Great GM decision making.

 

I tend to agree with that. They spent money on product, while marketing spent money that ultimately undermined the brand.

 

My belief: If the current management structure were in charge of GM at the time Olds faced the axe, it'd still be here.

 

Maybe Olds/Buick could have been merged into one Brand/Dealer network like Pontiac/Buck/GMC is today. Then Pontiac/GMC could have been sold together and Saturn could have stayed and affordable youth brand with all sub-$25K cars.

 

In reference to an earlier question about the 3.5 engine that was in the Intrigue and Aurora V6, it was dropped after these cars disappeared if I recall correctly, becuase of pending emissions certification that it may not have passed.

While I agree with the logic and sound arguments that Guy presents regarding the downfall of Olds, I still really like both the Intrigue and Aurora. The second gen Aurora is still a pretty classy looking car IMO. The announcement of Olds pending demise certainly didn't help with the launches of the then all new Aurora and the Bravada. Nobody wanted to buy lame duck product then and nobody would now.

You do have to wonder if buyers would have hung around if the death knoll wasn't sounded back in 2000-01. Brand new and expensive models like Aurora and Bravada were set to wither and die just as they came out - not a good thing for building buyer interest.

I agree with Z284ever on this one, I'd consider buying an Olds if they were still around (hell, I think I'd buy a second gren Aurora right now, if I were ready and could find one in near new, low mileage condition that I liked) - of course some of my family's best cars were Oldsmobiles - so I guess I have a soft spot for them too.

 

I don't think this is true. I believe that the title actually belongs to the Chevelle LS6. The 455 was rated up to 400 horsepower.

Maybe you meant advertised torque?

 

Just imagine the extra posts and threads about 'product overlap' if Olds were still around.