Ready for a shock? Ford Motor Company is worth nearly twice what GM is!
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,698
From: USA
I am about to snap up some GM stock. GM will not go away...it would be too big of an American failure to allow. Ford stock has been under $10 a share for years and they are still here.
Unfortunatly...the issue here is not gonna be something GM can fix in a month or two...or with product even. The way the credit market is right now..they could be selling cars with free gold plating and they would not sell because most people who want new cars either can't get loans, or are waiting till they feel better about the economy.
Gas is falling now..which will have a big role in everything. When gas goes down, everything costs less, and people have more money and confidence.. Suddenly that ****ty ARM you can't afford is a little more affordable. You feel better about everything. I have long thought that the high price of gas accelerated the mortage meltdown.
The big question is..can GM weather this down turn in good shape, and without damaging their current, somwhat good product portfolio due to knee jerk decisions.
Unfortunatly...the issue here is not gonna be something GM can fix in a month or two...or with product even. The way the credit market is right now..they could be selling cars with free gold plating and they would not sell because most people who want new cars either can't get loans, or are waiting till they feel better about the economy.
Gas is falling now..which will have a big role in everything. When gas goes down, everything costs less, and people have more money and confidence.. Suddenly that ****ty ARM you can't afford is a little more affordable. You feel better about everything. I have long thought that the high price of gas accelerated the mortage meltdown.
The big question is..can GM weather this down turn in good shape, and without damaging their current, somwhat good product portfolio due to knee jerk decisions.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
I guess I'm one of those people who actually would never choose to risk his and perhaps my own family's personal money based on emotional decisions or wishful thinking.
I look for trends and direction the company is going. I look at GM developing a system that can get cars to market in 18 months or less but not adapt it's approval process to take advantage of this. I look at GM creating an integrated global new vehicle engineering system yet bring out cars that can't be certified for the US. I see GM unveiling new vehicles at auto shows in the US then not sell it here because no one else does. I see GM killing a market shifting, high styled RWD Impala in favor of an applience oriented FWD version presumably over a mere 1 mpg difference. I see GM killing a great car simply because dealers want to keep selling to an elderly (and constantly dwindling) customer base. I see GM seemingly lurching from one plan to another.
Both Chrysler and Ford have shown how important it is to take quick decisive action when an automaker's back is against the wall. Create game changing mainstream models, and take a chance outside the way of thinking that got you into trouble. Chrysler historically is an expert at this, with the "K" cars, cab forward, and even the LX based 300C and Charger. Ford's "Aero" look, and their current new focused product push all are the right moves. Even GM's been capable of focusing and turning itself around. The late 70s downsizing of full size cars was both revolutionary and attention grabbing enough to get attention (and sales).
The Volt may be revolutionary, but unless GM is going to be selling their technology or the feds are going to give massive tax breaks, the Volt is a financially loosing proposition.
The issue isn't simply products (GM has proven they can make fantastic vehicles.... when motivated), but it's the mindset. The underlying item in all the turnarounds at Chrysler & Ford over the years has been the mindset within the company from the CEO all the way down to the factory floor. I don't sense GM is doing much more than circling the wagons and buying time in the hopes things get better... and drifting into a state of panic as they realize things aren't.
Not the type of atmostphere I'd be willing to stake a meaningful investment in.
I look for trends and direction the company is going. I look at GM developing a system that can get cars to market in 18 months or less but not adapt it's approval process to take advantage of this. I look at GM creating an integrated global new vehicle engineering system yet bring out cars that can't be certified for the US. I see GM unveiling new vehicles at auto shows in the US then not sell it here because no one else does. I see GM killing a market shifting, high styled RWD Impala in favor of an applience oriented FWD version presumably over a mere 1 mpg difference. I see GM killing a great car simply because dealers want to keep selling to an elderly (and constantly dwindling) customer base. I see GM seemingly lurching from one plan to another.
Both Chrysler and Ford have shown how important it is to take quick decisive action when an automaker's back is against the wall. Create game changing mainstream models, and take a chance outside the way of thinking that got you into trouble. Chrysler historically is an expert at this, with the "K" cars, cab forward, and even the LX based 300C and Charger. Ford's "Aero" look, and their current new focused product push all are the right moves. Even GM's been capable of focusing and turning itself around. The late 70s downsizing of full size cars was both revolutionary and attention grabbing enough to get attention (and sales).
The Volt may be revolutionary, but unless GM is going to be selling their technology or the feds are going to give massive tax breaks, the Volt is a financially loosing proposition.
The issue isn't simply products (GM has proven they can make fantastic vehicles.... when motivated), but it's the mindset. The underlying item in all the turnarounds at Chrysler & Ford over the years has been the mindset within the company from the CEO all the way down to the factory floor. I don't sense GM is doing much more than circling the wagons and buying time in the hopes things get better... and drifting into a state of panic as they realize things aren't.
Not the type of atmostphere I'd be willing to stake a meaningful investment in.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 254
I guess I'm one of those people who actually would never choose to risk his and perhaps my own family's personal money based on emotional decisions or wishful thinking.
I look for trends and direction the company is going. I look at GM developing a system that can get cars to market in 18 months or less but not adapt it's approval process to take advantage of this. I look at GM creating an integrated global new vehicle engineering system yet bring out cars that can't be certified for the US. I see GM unveiling new vehicles at auto shows in the US then not sell it here because no one else does. I see GM killing a market shifting, high styled RWD Impala in favor of an applience oriented FWD version presumably over a mere 1 mpg difference. I see GM killing a great car simply because dealers want to keep selling to an elderly (and constantly dwindling) customer base. I see GM seemingly lurching from one plan to another.
Both Chrysler and Ford have shown how important it is to take quick decisive action when an automaker's back is against the wall. Create game changing mainstream models, and take a chance outside the way of thinking that got you into trouble. Chrysler historically is an expert at this, with the "K" cars, cab forward, and even the LX based 300C and Charger. Ford's "Aero" look, and their current new focused product push all are the right moves. Even GM's been capable of focusing and turning itself around. The late 70s downsizing of full size cars was both revolutionary and attention grabbing enough to get attention (and sales).
The Volt may be revolutionary, but unless GM is going to be selling their technology or the feds are going to give massive tax breaks, the Volt is a financially loosing proposition.
The issue isn't simply products (GM has proven they can make fantastic vehicles.... when motivated), but it's the mindset. The underlying item in all the turnarounds at Chrysler & Ford over the years has been the mindset within the company from the CEO all the way down to the factory floor. I don't sense GM is doing much more than circling the wagons and buying time in the hopes things get better... and drifting into a state of panic as they realize things aren't.
Not the type of atmostphere I'd be willing to stake a meaningful investment in.
I look for trends and direction the company is going. I look at GM developing a system that can get cars to market in 18 months or less but not adapt it's approval process to take advantage of this. I look at GM creating an integrated global new vehicle engineering system yet bring out cars that can't be certified for the US. I see GM unveiling new vehicles at auto shows in the US then not sell it here because no one else does. I see GM killing a market shifting, high styled RWD Impala in favor of an applience oriented FWD version presumably over a mere 1 mpg difference. I see GM killing a great car simply because dealers want to keep selling to an elderly (and constantly dwindling) customer base. I see GM seemingly lurching from one plan to another.
Both Chrysler and Ford have shown how important it is to take quick decisive action when an automaker's back is against the wall. Create game changing mainstream models, and take a chance outside the way of thinking that got you into trouble. Chrysler historically is an expert at this, with the "K" cars, cab forward, and even the LX based 300C and Charger. Ford's "Aero" look, and their current new focused product push all are the right moves. Even GM's been capable of focusing and turning itself around. The late 70s downsizing of full size cars was both revolutionary and attention grabbing enough to get attention (and sales).
The Volt may be revolutionary, but unless GM is going to be selling their technology or the feds are going to give massive tax breaks, the Volt is a financially loosing proposition.
The issue isn't simply products (GM has proven they can make fantastic vehicles.... when motivated), but it's the mindset. The underlying item in all the turnarounds at Chrysler & Ford over the years has been the mindset within the company from the CEO all the way down to the factory floor. I don't sense GM is doing much more than circling the wagons and buying time in the hopes things get better... and drifting into a state of panic as they realize things aren't.
Not the type of atmostphere I'd be willing to stake a meaningful investment in.
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 107
YEP
GM has great brands like Buick(if you are 80 then you will enjoy buick}
Pontiac,,,,yep all their cars look alike(is that a grandam or grand prix???Naaa its a GTO}
Yep GM screwed up and will not be here in 2009.
Geee and I wanted a Camaro SS.....
But Ford will be around forever because they have the smarts
in what they are doing now.....
I guess GM still does not get it,I see Hummer commercals still on tv
GM has great brands like Buick(if you are 80 then you will enjoy buick}
Pontiac,,,,yep all their cars look alike(is that a grandam or grand prix???Naaa its a GTO}
Yep GM screwed up and will not be here in 2009.
Geee and I wanted a Camaro SS.....
But Ford will be around forever because they have the smarts
in what they are doing now.....
I guess GM still does not get it,I see Hummer commercals still on tv
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
I see GM killing a market shifting, high styled RWD Impala in favor of an applience oriented FWD version presumably over a mere 1 mpg difference. I see GM killing a great car simply because dealers want to keep selling to an elderly (and constantly dwindling) customer base. I see GM seemingly lurching from one plan to another.
Dodge Charger replaces the RWD Impala. Chrysler 300C replaces the RWD Buick (and Chrysler brand probably replaces Buick all together). Chrysler also fills a number of other GM holes like mid-sized SUVs and minivans. Meanwhile GM has midsized and small cars.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,600
From: Pewee Valley, KY
If, and this is assuming a lot, if GM has been considering a merger with Chrysler for some time, then perhaps these GM moves make sense.
Dodge Charger replaces the RWD Impala. Chrysler 300C replaces the RWD Buick (and Chrysler brand probably replaces Buick all together). Chrysler also fills a number of other GM holes like mid-sized SUVs and minivans. Meanwhile GM has midsized and small cars.
Dodge Charger replaces the RWD Impala. Chrysler 300C replaces the RWD Buick (and Chrysler brand probably replaces Buick all together). Chrysler also fills a number of other GM holes like mid-sized SUVs and minivans. Meanwhile GM has midsized and small cars.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
I don't think people can just assume that one brand is going to replace another like that. For example Buick outsells Chrysler worldwide easily (heck it is THE brand in China and that is something that won't change anytime soon). I could see Dodge replacing Pontiac through.
Just that Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep has a much larger sales volume than Buick/Pontiac/GMC in the US -- and their product lines and target markets are very similar.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,600
From: Pewee Valley, KY
here but I don't know it just seems 
wrong.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
I think quite a few here are overblowing this potential merger.
First of all, it's GM that's doing the serching. They went to Ford, and Ford all but ran away from them. Now they are sweet talking Chrysler, offering up the rest of GMAC and the Volt program (which might explain GM doing this program despite never likely to recoupe the development costs) as enticements.
What GM gets is another $11 billion in cash (roughly a 65% increase in their cash reserves), the iconic Jeep brand, a Chrysler division that's stronger than Buick, a Dodge division that has a stronger performance image than Pontiac (Dodge has the highest percentage of male buyers of any US automaker while Pontiac has the highest percentage of female buyers of any US automaker). GM also gets to spread the amount of money they'll recoupe from development over a even wider range of vehicles.
Cerberus is a financial and investment company first and foremost. They got Chrysler on the cheap with Daimler funding most all Chrysler's liabilities and most all new products in the pipeline. Cerberus since then hasn't lost money, even taking additional money from Daimler that they didn't need simply because if they hadn't by a certain date, they'd lose it. Cerberus has farther cut spending by partnering up for as many vehicles as possible. Despite dropping sales, for it's size and being a US automaker, Chrysler is a bit of a cash cow right now.
Chrysler doesn't need GM, and in fact, just might be worse off tying up with GM (Chrysler has already hooked up with Nissan for small cars). But Cerberus being a finance company probally sees a huge enticement to sell, especially before they need to spend a part of that $11 billion to meet future standards or replace car lines which they can't partner up with someone.
As for Chrysler, I think they need GM's large RWD Zeta platform. The current LX cars are Mercedes based. Once Cerberus buys out the rest of Daimler's share in Chrysler, Daimler might have no little intrest in Chrysler.
The last thing you'd see is GM cutting some of it's own models or trying to incorperate Chrysler models into GM's existing lineup.
First of all, it's GM that's doing the serching. They went to Ford, and Ford all but ran away from them. Now they are sweet talking Chrysler, offering up the rest of GMAC and the Volt program (which might explain GM doing this program despite never likely to recoupe the development costs) as enticements.
What GM gets is another $11 billion in cash (roughly a 65% increase in their cash reserves), the iconic Jeep brand, a Chrysler division that's stronger than Buick, a Dodge division that has a stronger performance image than Pontiac (Dodge has the highest percentage of male buyers of any US automaker while Pontiac has the highest percentage of female buyers of any US automaker). GM also gets to spread the amount of money they'll recoupe from development over a even wider range of vehicles.
Cerberus is a financial and investment company first and foremost. They got Chrysler on the cheap with Daimler funding most all Chrysler's liabilities and most all new products in the pipeline. Cerberus since then hasn't lost money, even taking additional money from Daimler that they didn't need simply because if they hadn't by a certain date, they'd lose it. Cerberus has farther cut spending by partnering up for as many vehicles as possible. Despite dropping sales, for it's size and being a US automaker, Chrysler is a bit of a cash cow right now.
Chrysler doesn't need GM, and in fact, just might be worse off tying up with GM (Chrysler has already hooked up with Nissan for small cars). But Cerberus being a finance company probally sees a huge enticement to sell, especially before they need to spend a part of that $11 billion to meet future standards or replace car lines which they can't partner up with someone.
As for Chrysler, I think they need GM's large RWD Zeta platform. The current LX cars are Mercedes based. Once Cerberus buys out the rest of Daimler's share in Chrysler, Daimler might have no little intrest in Chrysler.
The last thing you'd see is GM cutting some of it's own models or trying to incorperate Chrysler models into GM's existing lineup.
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From: Okemos, MI
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,958
From: Kansas City, MO
The Fed has already approved a $7,500 tax break for Volt. Will it be enough? I dunno. Guess it depends on the final sticker of the Volt, but it will help.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 107
First off Cerberus will get rid of Dodge whenever they can.
It was a mistake and they put too much money into the company.
As for the VOLT
Who will want to pay $40,000-$50,000 for the car??????
Ohhhh I am sure there will not be many Volts on dealer lots,,I think they will jackuppppp
the price another$10,000 at the dealers...Yeaaaaa think I am wrong???????
Problem is that there will be no Nuclear plants to power all these electirc cars at night when everyone comes home from work.
Think there will be many black outs
It was a mistake and they put too much money into the company.
As for the VOLT
Who will want to pay $40,000-$50,000 for the car??????
Ohhhh I am sure there will not be many Volts on dealer lots,,I think they will jackuppppp
the price another$10,000 at the dealers...Yeaaaaa think I am wrong???????
Problem is that there will be no Nuclear plants to power all these electirc cars at night when everyone comes home from work.
Think there will be many black outs
