No doubt they are popular, but I think they stand out in your mind because A) they are GM's mass-market brand so of course there's gonna be more Chevys out there than any other GM brand, and B) Chevy is what you have chosen to focus in on, because that happens to be your thing. When you block out everything but Chevy, of course they will look like #1.

Do you know anything about the Super Duty Trans Am's or the 421 or the 389 or the 336 (and why it was called a 326 instead), the triple deuces, the Ram Air III's and IV's? Didn't think so. Those are all defining moments and turning points in musclecar history and they're all about PMD, not Chevy.

P.S. the 326 actually does displace 336 cubic inches, but it was called a 326 because Chevy wouldn't have it any other way. I'm serious. They couldn't sit back and be outshined by a bigger better motor than their 327, even though the 336 was just that. So PMD was forced to have the engine called one cube smaller, when it was 9 cubes bigger. Talk about playing dirty, on Chevy's part

P.S. #2: The Mako Shark II and Manta Ray concept cars that led to the entire design of the C3 vette were based heavily on the 1964 Banshee concept, by none other than Pontiac. Basically a stolen idea.

P.S. #3: You ever heard of the 1982 Turbo Trans Am? Of course not. It never existed. Why? Because it was cancelled, due in large part to whining and complaining by Chevy. The turbo bulge hood was ready to go and they were gonna have displays through it just like the 80-81 Turbo had. Chevy had the clout, and didn't want a faster Trans Am anymore, so the project never happened. Same Chevy politics killed a ready-to-go 180HP 305 that same model year, leaving only the 165HP LU5. The LU5 was also one of the the first "corporate" engines that technically was not owned by any division, again due in large part to Chevy's jealousy, among other things. And it was not available with a 4-speed, robbing it of its full potential, again thanks to Chevy. Guilty..

P.S. #4, and this is kind of tongue-in-cheek but true: The LQ8/LQ9/etc a.k.a. "Iron Duke" that's still good enough for zillions of USPS mail micro-vans running today ultimately started out life as a Pontiac motor. Remember that stand-off in the middle of a highway a few months ago with a guy holed up in a USPS micro-van? That was an Iron Duke. They even sold thousands of Dukers to AMC/Jeep/Renault, or whatever the heck that company was back then.

I strongly recommend the book "Firebird! America's Premier Performance Car: The Complete Story" by Gary Witzenburg, written in 1982. After 1982, all F-body drivetrains have been pretty much identical between the 2 sister cars so there's nothing big to talk about. That is, of course, unless you take the 'vette killer 89 TTA, another ballsy move by Pontiac, and not the other guys So as it turns out, the book was written at the perfect time for talking about Firebird's unique history from the drawing board up till the end of the relevant differences. It's an awesome book, with info you won't find anywhere else.

I don't usually hype up PMD but hey this is the perfect thread for it

gt

 

I also rember in 74 they wanted to put the SD 455 in the T/A, Grand Am, and GTO untill coprate stopped them.


Using the Turbo 301 in an 82 Trans Am wouldn;t have been all that good...it's a horible engine.

 

Good Pontiac commentary, Kizz.

For me, the glory days for Pontiac performance started the day that "Bunkie" Knudsen was given the job of saving Pontiac. From the late 50's until the mid-sixties, Pontiac was one exciting division. Beautiful sheetmetal, Super Duty internals, multiple carbs........WOW!

On the subject of Firebird.......I think that it used to be more fun when it wasn't a mechanical clone of Camaro. It would have been even more fun if Chevy had actually stepped up to the plate and made Z/28 compete with Trans Am in the mid to late "70s.

The only Chevy motor that could hold a candle to the T/A 6.6 was the Corvette's L-82.....a motor that would never be considered for a mere Camaro.

So it wasn't only Firebird that GM liked to hurt kizz.

 

Smokey & the Bandit: 2nd most profitible move that year, and almost single handedly created the Trans Am legend of the late 70s (as if it needed any help....it was ONLY the quickest American made car in 1975-1978, and was second only to the Corvette in top speed). That's all. )

Smokey & the Bandit II: Bad movie, and the car was a ghost of itself, but it still had a turbocharged V8.

Knight Rider: NEWSFLASH: Kitt wasn't real!

If the only bashing you can give a car is the movies and TV shows they were in when most of the people here were still in learning pronouns or on their 1st date, then you are really, really reaching, bub!

 

Since the GTO Pontiac models have taken precedence (generally) over thier respective Chevrolet models...why? Because that is Pontiac's gimmick...performance. You can't have an excitment division with cars slower than your average Chevy.


Has they said in one Chapter of "All Corvette's are Red" aside from the Vette, and maybe Camaro they market Chevys to peple who have trouble patying thier bills.

 

Crude and oversimplified as usual, but I think we know what you mean. :blah:

 

If pontiac is the performance division, why are all the V8's in Chevys? At least for the moment.

 

Heh, I guess you had to slip that in real quick, before the GTO comes out? Which, being a RWD coupe V8, is a car unlike anything on Chevy's roster for next year. I'm excluding Corvette, since that's basically worlds apart from any other Chevy, in mission statement and in price. Right now as we speak it's a VERY unusual time for PMD, being the first time in 40 years without a single V8 in any model. This has never happened before in modern times, so it's a highly rare highly unusual time that allows your statement to be made, and it's a good point, but a temporary situation.

Speaking of Corvette, and speaking of Pontiac.. here's something I bet most people never contemplated:

And that's only half the story, because with certain options (namely the W62 aero package and the default N89 wheels), a 1984 T/A had a coefficient of drag as low as 0.299.

But the part in bold is something that people *never* think about. Seems so implausible, yet that's how it was in those days, before everything was watered down in the 90s and 00s.

gt

 

Well they DID put the SD 455 in the 74 T/A. 73 and 74 were the only T/A years for that motor, a.k.a. LS2. It made a modest 315hp in 73. That was the last year for Ram-Air I believe, till 1982.

73 M3 SD455 T/A - 180 made
73 A4 SD455 T/A - 72 made
74 M3 SD455 T/A - 212 made
74 A4 SD455 T/A - 731 made
74 SD455 Formula - 57 total (dunno transmission breakdowns)
73-74 grand total - 1252 SD455's.

There was a different motor that still survived into 75 - 76 called the 455 HO a.k.a. L75, but there was nothing "high output" about it. It was rated at 200hp and didn't have ONE single high-performance part. It was the same motor used in station wagons, etc.

those are net, not gross, FWIW.

I don't think it ever went in the G/A, and the GTO was already on the deathbed, and with the volatile oil situation, they decided to have it go out with a whimper instead of a bang, doh.

gt

 

CARS magazine actually gave their 1973 Car of the Year award to the 1974 SD455 GTO and then it was never produced! There were test mules, though. I can't imagine how fast the 1974 GTO would have been with the SD455. Probably would have been the fastest car of the year.

 

Interesting argument, but here's a theory. If Pontiac is supposed to be the "American BMW" per good ol' BL, why not have Chevy be the true purveyor of cheap speed? You know, the SRT-4 division, not the BMW division

I commented to my sales manager this morning, the ONLY GM division that does anything for me at this point is Pontiac (luckily enough, where I work!). From '99-'01 or so, Olds used to be my personal favorite, but farewell. For year and years in the '80s to mid '90s, Chevy was the one though that fueled my automotive passions. What happened?

Wheres my Camaro?
Wheres my Monte SS with RWD and a V8?
Hell, wheres my nice, cheap FWD performance like Z24 and Z26/GTZ?

Anyone home at Chevy?

For the first time ever, there is not ONE Chevrolet product I would even CONSIDER buying! A damn shame, considering Chevy is the line that got me into cars...

 

Man....did you ever hit the nail on the head! What would I buy?....umm...nothing, really.

Twelve or fifteen years ago, there would have been plenty.

-The Camaro for example.

-The Beretta GTZ/Z26...Chevy's goal was to make it the best performing FWD in the world....(and they came pretty close to doing it).

-Cavalier Z24.....it was hard to beat the original's combo of good looks, good performance and attainable price.

-Monte Carlo SS...(the other one, with the V8 and RWD)

-454SS...ha!...what do you know, a Chevy performance truck with *****.

Did I miss any??

You get the impression that there was a time when Chevy was actually trying.

Oh, a Z06 would be nice, ...of course, I could have bought any 4 of the previously mentioned 5 for the same price.

 

Pontiac also had sights set on challenging the Corvette with the Fiero--something else I'm sure people see as implausible.

 

Really?

Everything I've read about Fiero has said it was meant to be a 'sporty' car more than a performace car from the beginning, and that was why it mucked along with just a 4-banger in the beginning until they offered the 6 (which was finally added because of all the 'lack of power for it's image' complaints).... and even the 6 wasn't exactly a world beater.

I am no Fiero expert... but I have read a decent amount of stuff on the car... the only direct Corvette comparable thing ever mentioned is that they both were 2-seaters.... but so was Buick Reatta... and Cadillac Alante... and I dont think they were ever meant as Corvette competitors either.

 

Just to point out a few things. Number one is that the fiero wasn't intended originally to be a sports car. Look at the 84 literature it was a commuter car! Also those little v6 or 4 cly (SD4) cars COULD outhandle the same year corvette in a road race situation, on 14 or 15 inch rims. And just to let you know there are some fiero prototypes that are going to be at a fiero event comming up. It is rumored that 1 has a GN motor with an integrated intercooler built into the spoiler, yeah that is where Proche got the idea. One of the other cars is supposed to have a DOHC 6 possibly in the 4.3 liter range. Now put that up against any vette up to a Z06 C5 and my money will be on the fiero.