Doug Harden

Sorry to be so blunt, but, you really need to try and comprehend simple english.........IF it was called anything else but a GTO then I would agree wholeheartedly......BUT GM used a historical moniker that always had hood scoops........but chose to leave them off of this use of the fabled GTO moniker........that is all I am trying to say.

Besides, your analogy paints all of us with hood ornamentation as "ricers" ......I hardly think the SS hoods and the cowl hood on my 1969 RS/SS is "rice"......need I remind you that the Corvette had many variations of hood scoops an buldges over the ages.......the BMW M3 also uses a different hood than the other 3 series models.........along with many other American and imported fabled performance cars....I wouldn't call a Ferrarri 360 Modena a "ricer", would you? I also wouldn't say it was marketed to the younger crowd either.

Again, I don't mean to upset you, but please at least try to understand the simple point I've tried, time and again to make in this debate..........

whuzizname

Looks like a Grand Am up to the "A" pillar.

Behind the "A" pillar it looks like a bland Catera. WTF?

GTO = Get The Original

D James

So has anyone looked up how well the Alstralian version performs, far as road handling ride quality, so furth, just to get an idea of what this car is capable of. What about interior room, its gotta be much better than the F-body, esepecially the backseat. Don't get me wrong I do love my firebird, but sometimes I wish there was more room in the trunk and back. I personally love this car, it should have some real good qualities to it. Whens the last time you saw a 5.7 liter engine hooked to a 6 speed manual trans in a family type sedan. You could probably get away with alot more speeding in front of cops as opossed to the F-body. When my dad had his 96 Riviera I was in love with that thing, sure it was big, but comfortable with every option a person could want. My only beef was for a supercharged engine, it really was low on power, considering its heavy weight. I wish I could get one of these cars when it comes out, but the price is way over my price budget.

kizz

OK guys I want to point out TWO things which I think most people will agree with:

ONE: You can always upgrade to aftermarket scoop hood, but you cannot downgrade since rarely do aftermarketers make 'base' hoods, and there is no other domestic model that matches the GTO body so you can't even "borrow" a flat hood from any other model. So those of you begging for a hood, just swallow your pride and pay extra for an aftermarket one, or let's wait and see if Pontiac offers one.

TWO: The LS1 / LS6 setup is not exactly the most ideal setup for working with a hood scoop, unless you want a fake hood scoop, and who the hell wants that? Not me. The intake of those motors is pretty much horizontal and forward facing, not vertical like a carb, so it doesn't lend itself to hood scoops. The original GTO's were all carbed and therefore ideal for a direct scoop at the hood, directly above. The most recent engines that were made with functional Ram-Air hoods (on F-body) were the LU5 Cross-Fire like on my 82 T/A, and the LG4 / L69 4-barrels of the early-mid 80s. After that came TPI's which are pretty much identical to LS1 LS6 as far as overall intake proportions, i.e. both forward-facing. It would be damn hard and damn pricey to incorporate some convoluted and inefficient air plumbing system for *functional* hood scoops on an LS1 LS6 and have 'em far enough back to resemble the old GTOs even close.

So you'll have to settle for a flat hood or a FAKE aftermarket one. While those who want flat hoods keep their stock flat hoods. Everyone wins.

??

GT

Z284ever

While we're on the topic of hood scoops, here are some other things that have always been on GTO's

1) Pontiac V8

2) Carbs (4bbl, 2bbl, 3x2bbl)

3) Live rear axle

4) Drum brakes

5)MSRP below $7k

kizz

yeah well.. that was 28-38 years ago. Those items you listed all fall under the obsolete technology category for muscle cars. The last Pontiac-specific V8 was in 1981. And I don't think you'll be seeing that kind of window sticker, unless it's made by Kia

Burmite

Alright Doug, I'll explain myself a little bit better this time around instead of using a yelling type of comment. Totally my bad. You didn't upset me at all, but there's a point I'm trying to make about the GTO, current market styling, and hood scoops. Here I go...

Dan on SS/Agressive Hoods:
The reason why I picked out a ricer with an SS hood is that I attempted to use a metonymy for the youth crowd and agressive styling. Agressive styling is a feature that appeals often to young car owners. Ricers in general tend to be younger people who enjoy the over-agressive styling that is in element, the ricer: over-stated looks on a slow FWD car. Harsh lines, ground effects, and complex hoods appeal to a younger audience typically. But as one ages, one tends to enjoy more curvy and flowing looks on a car. They appeciate a car without loud looks that are designed to say "look at me!"
Now regardless of the car, hood scoops or an SS hood can simply look awesome on a car, like the 4th generation Camaro SS. But in general, the complexity of a car's appearance will dictate its appeal to a certain age group. It has been said the Pontiac will go after BMW. I don't have the quote handy but I hope someone can fill me with the proper quote of which I speak. Therefore to go after this market, simple but beautiful lines will be needed to appeal to this audience. This is not the same market as the Trans Am WS6 would go after. This is designed to appeal to a younger audience even though an older audience tended to buy them due to their relatively high price. An older audience was the only crowd that could afford the radically styled $35k WS6. Simply to sell in this market, you must appeal to the market. SS hoods are not rice like you said I implied. I meant that it will tend to help the car appeal to a younger audience.

Dan on the new GTO as a muscle car:
But wait! The GTO is known to have hood scoops! You're not getting to the point! Well that's because what I said above leads to this comment below. The true muscle car is dead. I repeat. The muscle car is dead. Buyers now desire a well balanced car with power, handling capabilities, technologically advanced engines and interiors, comfortable interiors, sleek looks, and fuel economy. The true muscle car is in violation of all of these. The GTO was a muscle car, but the new GTO is a true GT car. It has all the ammenities listed above. The GTO was a muscle car, but muscle cars don't exist. The GTO has to return as a GT car: powerful, comfortable, well handling, and an overal balance of many elements. It has to return in the closest form possible. The 4th gen Camaro was not even a muscle car. The 3rd gen was not a muscle car. They both had great handling! They were designed for overall performance, and not a drag strip as many remember the old GTO. But then again back in the days of the GTO, handling was not desired too much. Straight line performance was what was desired. With poor tire technology then, it is easy to see how this lack of handling developed. You have to make the car so that it will sell.

Dan on car styling through the ages:
Styling in the marketplace fluxuates throughout the ages. The look for ram air hoods, shaker scoops, and hood scoops was very much in style back in the days of the old GTO. It showed power, speed, and style. But over the years that desire has phased in and out. Some things are trendy in a decade, some things are not. But in today's marketplace, clean lines are desired by the older audience and the agressive lines are desired by the younger audience. Therefore to introduce the GTO as a GT car with IRS, a luxurious interior, great build quality, gobs of power, and other ammenities, you HAVE to style it with clean, smooth lines too sell it. This so far does not sound like a $20,000 car from the features I have described. Hood scoops do not belong on a car designed for this market. True cars like Corvette have gone through many styling changes but in modern years, that is not the look that the market desires. You have to style to sell. Not many are going to buy a $40,000 GTO with agressive looks. Therefore the styling must reflect the buyers that will purchase the new GTO.

Dan on the Camaro, Firebird, and Mustang in modern times:
Line up a 67 Camaro, a 1st gen Firebird, and a 66 Mustang convertible side by side with their modern counterparts. They look nothing alike. The styling cues from each have been changed many times and currently look nothing like the modern interpretation of the old car. Looks and styling change throughout the years. I don't recall the 1st gen Camaro ever being offered with a ram air hood. Therefore shall we be offended that the 2002 Camaro SS had a raim air hood on it? Things will always change when it comes to looks. Just because the first car had it doesn't mean that the modern interpretation should have it too. The classic GTO was made from 1964-1974. The 2nd gen Camaro was made from 1970-1981, the 3rd from 1982-1992 and the 4th gen from 1993-2002. So really, the classic GTO only ran for the average span of a generation of Camaro. I would assume that it is similar for the 3rd and 4th generation Corvette but I don't have the numbers memorized, its late (1am) and I don't want to look them up. But basically, each generation of Camaro never dicated to the next how it should look. This should not be the case with the GTO. It is not like the GTO ran for 40 years straight. Only for 11 model years.

Dan on supercars and hood scoops:
Cars like 360 Moderna have the clean lines and looks but the scoops are added for extra agressiveness in the car to help put the exclamation mark on the car that is a Ferrari. You will see these scoops on $100,000+ cars. But anything below (such as a $40,000 GTO) will not have this type of styling feature. It is jsut what the market dictates. Don't blame me, I'm only commenting on what I see. The sub 6 figure car market (minus Subaru with their direct appeal to youth and the 02 F-car that is no longer made) does not incorporate scoops. It is just not what is trendy on these cars.

Dan finally saying his conclusion:
This car was designed to sell as a modern interpretation of the GTO. Without the niche for a true muscle car in today's market and the trend of smooth lines, this is the best modern interpretation of this car imaginable. Remember the 1999 GTO concept? That would not sell but it has all the beloved stylnig cues and hood scoops that some on this board want. Charge $40,000 for it and you'll see them pile up in dealer lots faster than a French surrender. But this car is the best it can be and personally, I love how it looks. For those that don't like it, I hope you grow to like it since these will be selling in the coming years very well.

PS:
Doug, don't insult my English skills again. Lets both try harder to keep a higher maturity level. My bad with the yelling on the hood scoops post. I don't post often but insulting me like that will only make me write a book and post it here in this board for the pain of the readers to see.

kizz

Long story short: Generally young kids are interested in instant gratification, interested in making sure you hear their exhaust rumble and see their flashy colors and aftermarket wheels and loud systems, etc. But "geezers", which I'm getting to be a part of, and I don't mean that as a derogatory term, are more interested in clean looking sleeper cars, interested in knowing they can stomp the other guy's a$$ at will, if they have to, and still look modest and formal doing so. Like it or not, GTO is marketed towards the latter group, so by necessity, it will be understated and subtle, just like the car it's based on.

I agree with everything you wrote except I do disagree with your notes about 3rd and 4th gen not being muscle cars. How quickly we forget about the EPA which choked all the power out of the f-bodies in the late 70s and early 80s, against their will. Approximately 76-83 was the lowest point. Do you remember the 190 HP Corvette? I do. Slowly in the 80s there was a horsepower comeback, culminating in the 98-02 LS1. If 325HP 4-wheel-disc RWD posi bucket-seat stiff suspension f-bodies are not a musclecars, then what is? And don't forget about gross vs. net; today's ratings (post-1972) are stronger horses than any of those GTO's were. Pick any GTO you can think of; it's less powerful than the 2004.

IZ28

Yup, they are all musclecars/performance cars no matter what or how much power they had. Through the years they've always had to do what they could according to the economy. Sometimes it was good for power and sometimes no, but you can bet they were always the faster and all around better performing than all other cars of their times regardless of how it was.

Now for the hood scoops. So hood scoops are just for the younger huh?! If you want to think that fine LOL, but guess what, thats wrong. Any1 who thinks that can go look up which model of the 4th Gen Camaro's and Firebird's was the most bought and then look up what the average buyer age was. Thats what I thought. Tell that to all the musclecar owners at car shows and cruise nights who aren't "young."

As for them on EFI cars. Yes they were used on cars starting back in the day for obvious reasons like getting air to the air cleaner all the way up to both Third Gen F-Bodies' LU5 engines. But the SS and Ram Air hoods were also functional on their EFI engines. Besides, even if they weren't used to get air to a filter, who wouldn't want some extra openings for some engine cooling while also looking cool at the same time??

Hood designs are always good whether they're scoops, louvers, vents, or like what C4's and C5's have. F-Bodies and M*****gs have had them since fuel injection was 1st used and actual scoops weren't needed. Its just nice and definetly adds appeal. They belong on these cars, its where they came from.

pu12en12g

It looks like a Holden

guionM

Not going to get sucked into the hood scoop / no hood scoop debate because that's just a matter of taste, so I'll just throw an opinion out here.

If the absolute worst thing that can be said is that "GTO isn't a muscle car because it doesn't have a hood scoop", then GTO is obviously a muscle car. I don't see the big issue on what would obviously be a set of fake hood scoops. Z28's havent had them since '97, so does that mean it isn't a muscle car??

On the other hand, one could also argue using the same logic that the Trans Am hasn't been a real Trans Am since Pontiac took off the shaker hood scoop. The concept Trans Am of last year looked more like a Trans Am than anything Pontiac made in 20 years.

I think scoops may add a link to a car's history, so I can understand why some of you prefer hood scoops on the new GTO. I prefer the stealth look, so I respectfully disagree, but again, it's just a matter of taste.

But to say the GTO isn't a muscle car because of this one ommision, is really streaching things, don't you think?

Doug Harden

Dan,

I apologize if I insulted you, I tried to explain my aggravation with having to repeat myself, it certainly wasn’t aimed squarely at you however.

I think you have many good points but I feel like you are mistaken in your assessment of the target market for these cars.

Truth be told I am the target audience for this car….I’m 45, make around $60k/year, grew up with the original versions of these cars, still an auto enthusiast (to say the least), etc….so to say I want a rather blandly styled, vanilla car even with a V8, RWD is way off base here.

Don’t forget, we are over the need for an SUV, minivan, etc… we want something to drive….something to reward ourselves with for the lost years driving utilitarian automobiles while raising kids, etc…

GM knew their target market…..otherwise why even bring the GTO out of the mothballs? Coulda’ called it anything else.

Let’s face it…..the main reason this car didn’t get a hood has way more to do with a lack of time and funding, than some weak, incorrect rationalization of some false target market. To try and tell us what we should or shouldn’t like, is to guarantee failure.

The Monaro / GTO is a handsome car, but lacks passion…..it will get lost in a crowded parking lot…hardly a selling point for a mid $30k+ sports sedan…at least in my book. This is where the Japanese sedans, except the 350Z & G35 miss the American market altogether……they don’t have a clue who we are….

I am not, and will not be a BMW or Mercedes Benz buyer…..innocuous model designations on indiscernible models is not nor will not appeal to me…and many other good ol’ red blooded American car buyers. Oh sure they’re great cars….but I don’t want to drive an easy chair…or need to impress my neighbors.

Don’t forget, we grew up in a time when Detroit built some of the flashiest, high horsepowered cars ever. Hood scoops, big ol’ stripes, massive amounts of torque and horsepower was were we fell in love with American muscle cars. Hell man, we’re children of the 60’s…independent, individualists with a love for speed and American iron.

Do I want the GTO to be over-designed with scoops, hood tach etc...?? Of course not, even I don't want to drive a neon sign....but when GM chose to use the GTO moniker, they tried to invoke a legendary heitage, but left off any discernable tie to it's storied past....that's it in a nut shell...call it something else.
Doesn't have to be a scoop, many other muscular hood designs can provide some visual passion....but flat hoods like the 4th gen Camaro and this Monaro are weak to say the least.

I am sure the aftermarket will allow those of us that desire some personalization to do so...good enough I guess.

It isn’t the younger crowd that is buying flashy cars like the Corvette, etc..…it’s us old guys who can not only afford them, but desire them above the vanilla crowd.

BTW, I take great exception with the statement that the muscle car is dead….I think it simply has evolved…..how else do you explain the fact that today’s cars can run circles around the cars from the good ol’ days? I understand your definition of the muscle car is one that would only include big block, drag racers, but that’s just not true….wasn’t then…..isn’t now. Heck, Pontiac and Ford proudly proclaim “The Muscle Car Lives (on)”. Thank goodness.

The only 4th gen f-bodies that sold at the end, were the ones with hood scoops…in fact the lack of a good hood had regulated the legendary Z/28 to a second class citizen…killing sales and re-sale values.……and who would you guess bought all those hood scooped cars? It’s people like me…..old farts that we are. Oh sure there were exceptions, always are, but ask Red about the demographics.

Again, you have a lot of good thoughts….but are assuming many incorrect positions….

pu12en12g

Real auto enthusiasts depend on the aftermarket.

The "Target Market" usually stays stock.

Darth Xed

lol.... ok.

Ever hear of the Corvette "Survivor Series"?

or how about the fact that a lot of (I wont say 'most' because I dont have numerical data to back me up) classical cars are painstakingly restored to stock configuration?

How about the guy that buys a Mustang Cobra and doesn't alter it because he wants it to remain stock?

I guess these guys aren't "Real auto enthusiasts" though, right?

pu12en12g

A car collector maybe, a car driver, certainly... but yeah... you heard me right.... if you leave the stock intake restrictions in place and leave the car stock I wouldn't consider you a car enthusiast. (how can you knowingly suffocate the car and be a car enthusiast simultaneuously)

Why would anyone want to depend on the GM designers to come up with THEIR ideal design. Just buy the car and mod it to your freakin satisfaction. A aftermarket Holden hood scoop isn't going to void the warranty... so why bitch about a scoop.