Z284ever

I guess the thinking was that a RWD Zeta DTS sedan and RWD STS Sigma sedan were redundant and a waste of resources. The Zeta DTS is currently dead, leaving only the Lucerne version in the plan.

As far as the GTO stuff, sounds like you're much more optimistic than me bud.

guionM

I'm just reading the gameplan.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

More fuel to that fire...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/ve-n...802870249.html

Though I'm not sure this would be a GTO replacement... maybe in the shorter term until a new GTO was ready...

ZaphodBeeblebrox

Wasn't the rumor that the LaCrosse/Allure would move to Epsilon, possibly to be built at Lake Orion next to the G6 variants? I know that plant used to be capable of significant production (mother-in-law worked there, building Auroras and Riviera's in the early-to-late 90's), but it went down to one shift (after they moved Buick City workers over there) before being converted to build the G6 and company.

Guy, are you sure the next-gen GTO has been officially approved? I've seen the comments Lutz made last March, alongside those of Jim Hopson (Pontiac Communications). The best guess is that a next-gen GTO concept is being worked on for either the moved-up L.A. Auto Show or NAIAS in January...

guionM

Without going into sources (Holden fired a couple of people after tracing work e-mails, so they are cracking down on people down there), the GTO program is farther along than Camaro's in that it had it's business plan and case made while GM was still working on getting a final version of one together for Camaro. You can say Camaro is a spinoff of the program in that it's a smaller version (short wheelbase) of the GTO, though the GTO is supposed to have different sheetmetal.

Then you have Lutz comments from March this year:
If memory serves, the meeting where the GTO 1st went on hold took place January last year when GM reviewed the entire North America Zeta program, and that was supposed to be for the final approval. Although Lutz says it was on hold for a few months, judging on the delay (it was supposed to be out by 2008MY), I'd say he's not including the re-engineering that had to be done to cut costs. Seems the re-engineering and cost removal added about a year.

routesixtysixer

Looks more like a $35,000 to $45,000 flagship sedan (G8?) replacement for Bonneville SSEi. IMHO not GTO material, but a step up from Grand Prix.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

Thanks for that. I respect your opinion and sources. I know that the next-gen Monaro is in process at Holden... I still suspect the GTO and the Monaro are, shall we say, "related".

Still, Charlie doesn't seem to think that the GTO is part of Oshawa. Any chance it gets built in Oz and exported again (not likely, if they're looking at filling the VE production excess with SS-V's and sending them stateside). Could the GTO/next-gen Monaro be built at Wilmington (could probably happen sooner than the late 2008 for the Camaro, given that Oshawa-2 needs to run out of product and then get revamped, which is what really seems to be dictating the end of 2008 production startup for the car)? What about Buick's version of the Statesman: export, or is that slated for Oshawa? I understand if you can't/don't want to answer... just thinking out loud here... love these kinds of speculative threads :-)

Z284ever

Here's afew things to consider:

*The Monaro replacement will probably end up being more Camaro than GTO this time around.

*The Camaro jump off point was the cancelled Zeta GMX282/284. These programs were mostly math, but the lower structure (minus afew inches of wheelbase), was retained and the upper structure is essentially all new.

*A GTO - as it was for GMX282 - would still require susbstantial engineering resources, all while all the engineering stops are being pulled just to get the Camaro done.

* If a new GTO were coming before Camaro, we certainly would have leaks by now, since it would require both substantial engineering and design resources to be committed RIGHT NOW.

* The GTO made money for Holden, but GMNA is unimpressed with it's sales performance for Pontiac.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

Great post! Again, this is the kind of stuff that I love to read

For a product that Guy is saying has been "approved" you're right, there is very little chatter about it going on. I feel pretty certain that there is a concept car in development - but I'm not sure that's it's much beyond that. Unless Holden is doing everything... which might explain why no one at GMNA seems to know much about a next-gen GTO, other than Lutz's and Hopson's comments. Then it leads to the proverbial questions of where will it be built, how much will it cost, et. al.

guionM

To be perfectly honest, I'm only assuming the next GTO will be made at Oshawa. The timing is within a few months of Camaro, and I'm still in the "all coupes on the same assembly line" mentality, which is probally wrong.

Facts without speculation on my part:
* the next GTO is returning about the same time as Camaro.
* The VE sedans from the 1st bolt were engineered to be sold in the US as well as Australia.
* GM North America is evaluating a high performance VE for Pontiac and a more luxurious version for Buick.
* Holden's factory will have the capacity to make an additional 25K+ cars in about a year and a half.
* Oshawa #2 is open for another line after the 2008 model year run.
* Holden has a Monaro replacement proposal based on the VE, but has very different sheetmetal and can be put into production very quickly.
* Holden also has with the Monaro replacement, a new version of the Ute.
* With the strength of the Australian dollar, only higher content cars can be sold here from Oz.
* GTO was profitable for GM (Holden is part of GM). Pontiac and quite a few GM executives are actually pretty happy with the GTO (consumer satisfaction, quality survey, the image it conveyed).
* And finally.... GM product planners know their sales projections of the GTO were overly optimistic (though very successful next to it's competitor, the Cobra). The business plan for the new GTO are for between 15-20K models annually.

Z284ever

As far as Holden doing everything on a GTO, they're engineering resources are being stretched pretty severely on Camaro alone. Besides, GM doesn't really work that way. A GTO being done for NA wouldn't be done in a vacuum in Australia. There would be coordination with GMNA. Design - for example- for an icon like GTO, would certainly be done here.

We'll see what NAIAS 2007 brings regarding concepts. We'll see if/what any possible future direction Pontiac will take with Zeta.

I can tell that if a GTO is coming concurrently or before the 2009 Camaro, no one at GMNA knows anything about it nor does it seem that anyone is currently working on such a program.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

I would agree, if there's no concept GTO next year, there probably isn't a next-gen GTO. Again, without going into details, I feel strongly that GMNA is at least working on a GTO concept car for next year's auto show season. Whether or not it shows up, I can't say. If GM follows the same path with the GTO that they did with the Camaro, the final approval (if it hasn't been approved yet) follows the concept, and we won't see the GTO until after the Camaro.

Roger Sears (rlsedition), who used to work for GM and was involved with Pontiac Zeta and the cancelled next-gen GTO/G8, has posted on LS1GTO more than once that they clinic'd the G8 and it got very high marks, but, by the time the decision was made to kill the cars, that GMNA stylists were interested in re-doing the vehicle... they were definitely "inspired" by the Mercedes CLS, and wanted to change the sedan styling to be more coupe-like in appearance, like the CLS (roofline in particular, IIRC)...

Z284ever

I've heard the same.

The "4 door coupe" would cost some bucks to develop though. A Pontiac version of the Commodore would be much cheaper, I think Holden says that they can Pontiac-ize and cert it for NA for $20 million.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

Yeah, that would be the SS-V. If they brought it here from Oz in 2009, I would probably buy one to sit next to my GTO. Only problem is, it doesn't solve Pontiac's need for a non-aspirational RWD sedan to replace the Grand Prix. That would have to be built somewhere here, rather than exported (unless Holden could start building at Daewoo's facilities in Korea). And that's not likely to happen until 2011 or so, if it happens at all (I know GM wants to downsize Pontiac and Buick to be niche manufacturers... more info today at http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/08/...it-gm-in-2007/

(Below is all speculation, nothing more).

The rumors were that RWD Impala wouldn't be until 2010 or so... and, earlier in this thread, the speculation was that Monte Carlo would die in 2008. If LaCrosse/Allure goes to Epsilon, and Monte Carlo dies, could Oshawa #1 keep making the current Impala and maybe a revised Grand Prix until it is revamped to produce a RWD Impala and maybe a Pontiac sedan variant? Is it likely that the next Lucerne gets built at Oshawa? What does this mean for the future of the Hamtramck facility (Lucerne/DTS), or does that become an option for additional RWD production in 2010/2011? Will there be that many people buying RWD coupes and sedans by that time (depends on gas prices and fuel economy)?

So many questions, so few insiders

formula79

I can't see the GTO being that much more to engineer over the Camaro...it is mostly just a lengthened version. Further more, with the engineering resources already put in the GTO at this point, it would be stupid not to make it. The other thing is that if GM were to make the Monte Carlo/Chevelle a sister car to the GTO, then suddenly the business case becomes much rosier. The MC has not torn up the sales charts, but it has been about as steady as a coupe can be.

Charlie is just our resident Pontiac doom and gloom reporter