guionM

GTO situation & GNX situation are very different.

GTP is what Pontiac called the supercharged Grand Prix because they had the respect to save the GTO name for a fast V8 RWD performance coupe (true). GNX put on a FWD S/C sedan.

Just a small detail that makes a world of difference.

SuperDave479

Personally, I think the GTO is a very good thing. It's a RWD V8 coupe for crying out loud.

Other than that though, I could imagine somebody coming out of a time machine into our time to find GMs great nameplates are back and being excited, but cursing the world when they find they are wimpy shells of their former selves.

Monte Carlo - FWD V6 in a car with a NASCAR heritage....
Monte Carlo SS - FWD V6 and the first molestation of the SS name in a car.

Impala - FWD V6 and not the sleek low-slung look that made it so popular.
Impala SS - The second molestation of the SS name in a car. The MC SS pissed me off, but this REALLY pissed me off.

Regal GSX - FWD V6 again.

When is this going to end? This kind of thing is starting to make me consider the dark side. I try to stay hopeful, but it's hard to sit here and watch as legendary nameplate after nameplate get trashed while Ford comes out with the RWD V8 Marauder and the GT40 and up the Cobra and Chrysler gets ready to bring out the RWD and Hemis again and my beloved F-Bodies get tossed into the trash bin. When they announced the CTSi and the GTO, it shocked the crap out of me that they will be RWD V8s. But yet they are still polluting legendary nameplates at the same time??!! Come on Bob, turn this thing around and instill the love of American RWD V8 cars into the staff of GM once again. Their blood is getting thin.....

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'95 Camaro Z28 A4
Oynx Black, 3.23 gears, T-tops, RKSport CA-300 ground effects, 17X9.5" polished 2000 C5 wheels on P275/40R17 BFGoodrich g-Force T/A rubber, Flowmaster 80 Series exhaust with chrome rolled edge quad tips, aftermarket two-tone leather seats (got the original cloth ones recovered), "diamond clear" clear corners, blackouts on taillights, chrome CAMARO letters on rear and "chrome" painted Z28 logos (looks like shiny silver) and vents on the hood, 97+ Camaro console, interior changed from Light Gray to Dark Gray.
My Camaro webpage

First, check Brent's Appearance Guide then check
SuperDave's supplement Appearance Mods pics for more 4th gen F-Body pics.

muckz

Those will be the same people that can't tell a difference between LT1 Camaro and Geo storm.

[This message has been edited by muckz (edited July 01, 2002).]

HuJass

Goatcrazy,
You must not be paying attention. You compare the GTO with the GSX and decide that the paths they are taking are one in the same. When in fact they are not. The only similar things about these 2 cars are an old name being put on a new car and that each respective car bears a family resemblance to the rest of the line. From there, the 2 cars diverge.
Where the GSX is going on a FWD,V-6, 4-door sedan, w/slush box which was NOTHING like the original (hence the prostituing of the name in it's case), the GTO is going on a RWD, V-8, 2-door coupe, w/ manual trans. Just like the original.
Like I said before. You cannot compare the 2 cars. Other than to say that what's happening to the GSX shows/proves that what GM is doing with the GTO name is correct/proper.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but EVERYBODY on this board has been very vocal about GM using classic nameplates on their new cars. We hate the fact that they use historic names on FWD,V-6,4-door sedans. We state our case time and time again. I know I don't buy those kinds of vehicles. I'm sure GM knows how we feel. But are we too small a group to make a difference? Maybe.

And here's a link to the SLP board regarding the upcoming GSX:

http://www.hoodscoop.com/ubb/ultimat...c;f=2;t=006317

ProudPony

Are their situations so different?

Both are cars that were made years ago, but not lately.
Both were regarded as great performers when produced.
Both earned reputations at dragstrips and on the streets.
Both conjure up memories of smoking rear tires.
Both seated 4 in fair comfort.
Both had their own distinct appearance in the details.
Both names are being "revived" in todays market.

Differences...
One falls short in styling links to it's heritage but has the performance.
One has the design links to it's heritage but falls short on performance.

What is so hard to see about this?


I also take issue with your quote that GM "had the respect to save the GTO name for a fast V8 RWD performance coupe".
I seriously doubt if the word "respect" ever came up in management/marketing meetings about what name would help guarantee sales on this car. I think you are giving the makers too much credit on this one.

ProudPony

He was playing it, dude. He was making fun of those who have no probs with the current GTO styling/naming. I think you took some of his sarcastic points to be serious ones.


I pretty much agree with you... up until this GTO came down the tubes. A few months back, some of us began to voice issues with resurrecting a GTO - because A)we knew there was no time allowed for a total new-car design (retro or not), B)we had concerns about an American Musclecar being imported, and C)we were concerned about ongoing name-pimping by the manufacturer. We caught hell on almost every count. Now that the GTO is getting display/publicity, we are still holding to most of those early concerns, and still catching hell for it.

As for us making a difference... Well, it's gotta start somewhere. When a small group of purists like us all stand together, we will be heard because of our collective car knowledge/experiences. Then groups like ours come together and the population begins to grow. Then, we begin to influence "regular" car people through magazine articles/periodicals/press coverage because they think we must know what we are talking about - after all, "we are purists"! And so the snowball begins...

In your post, you say "...we are too small to make a difference. Maybe?" Absolutely not - every great movement begins with one person's idea and then a small following. We CAN make a difference. BUT - not if we can't all see eye-to-eye with one another in our own group and work towards a common goal. Take the GTO-thing for example; why can't everyone that loves the car just love it for what it is, praise it, want it, etc. AND out of respect for others' view - still request that GM either rename it or have some minute elements added to visually link it to it's grandpa-by-name? It doesn't have to be "totally redesigned" to add some trim pieces, special shifter, or something.
But the "approving" attitude is wholly - "take it as it is or leave it." I ask, "Why?"

Again, I'm cool talking with you about stuff like this... you don't go berzerk and start ranting like some do. Post-on, my man!!

IZ28

No, any1 that can't tell those 2 cars apart is really stupid. The GTO and GTP look exactly the same and not a little alike, theres a difference.



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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic.

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg

cmc

If you can't tell the difference between a GTO and a GTP, you should be prompty fitted for eyewear.

And please justify why a car must have "styling links to the past". There is little market for retro anymore. There will be none in just a year or two. Being caught up in nostalgia is no way to design a successful car.

ProudPony

A "car" does not have to have links to the past. No-brainer. But a new car that's been given a name retired 30 years ago should! Especially when that name holds sentmental value to collectors/enthusiasts who are largely responsible for culturing that "legendary mystique" by restoring, showing, and racing those vintage cars.

A car spends 10 years pounding the pavement, burning up dragstrips, and shredding rear tires. It earns a name for itself. The company retires that name/car because economic conditions don't favor it anymore(gas prices?). The name lies dead for 30 years, but the old car itself develops quite a following of loyal collectors. "The legend lives on" sort of thing.

Now 30 years later, said carmaker decides to use that name again. By using that name, the carmaker has decided to ASSOCIATE the new car with the old one - like it or not - whether it is based on performance, styling, or solely by name - whatever.

IMHO, GM wanted this association for marketing purposes and to help revitalise Pontiac's "excitement" factor. Apparently, it (excitement) used to be there (remember when Camaros/Firebirds used to sell more than 40K units/year?), but this "move forward" or "forget the past" thing just hasn't worked out too well for the last few years, huh? So as for your comment on "Being caught up in nostalgia is no way to design a successful car", then why does a new car need a nostalgic name?

I also disagree with your comment on the retro thing being short-lived. People continuously age; people 55 now won't still be 55 in 5 years, will they? And at some time everyone will long for the things they wanted but couldn't afford when they were younger. They don't always want "restored" originals, but often prefer to buy a new car with a warranty and creature comforts - yet still resembling the original. So there is a perpetual market for retro [edit] designs - it's just that the executions need to be done on year models and names that will have enough interest to justify the cost of the project.

Interesting perspective you have on "nostalgic" issues. Just wondering... Do you by chance have any "old" cars - you know, the ones that "aren't so great" or shouldn't be remembered with any styling cues, emblems, or options?

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 03, 2002).]

cmc

On one hand, yes, you do have to give a car with a retro name some kind of link to the past, and I think a hood scoop would've definitely worked out very well for the GTO. On the other hand, no matter how much I'd love for it to happen, a '69 Camaro lookalike just won't sell in big numbers for more than a year or two.

So for styling links to the past, a cue will still go a lot farther than an entire retro-styled (Chevy Nomad concept, Chevy SSR concept, Thunderbird, PT Cruiser) vehicle. I believe that an entirely new car with the Camaro red-white-and-blue logo and a T-top option would go a lot farther than the design that showed up in Super Chevy Magazine (angular '68/'69 car).

As for cars that are "not-so-great", I currently don't own anything older than 1982 (but wish I could!). I don't quite think I understand the point of the question--don't think I don't appreciate classic cars. I'm just going at the GTO/5th gen Camaro issue a bit more objectively and not letting my passion for early-generation models influence what I think a modern version should be. I see so much "I want it to look exactly like the one that I first drove in '72/'67/'89/whatever" that it's what I've come to expect when "styling links to the past" are mentioned.

Aeromaks

In response to the GTO-GP, and Camaro - Storm thing.


At least the storm and the Camaro look different from side!

The GTO, the Grand Prix and the Grand am look nearly identical, cept one is stretched more than the other.

Take a grand am, descent car. stretch it out, it is a Grand Prix. Techinicly that is what it is, WIDER is better. Hence the PRix! Then chop off 2 doors, and it is a GTO. Put on a chevy plate, and it is a Monte Carlo.

At least a GEO Storm and Camaro were two wayy different cars, and looked different from the side.

But honestly, nearly all Pontiac cars look one in the same.

I mean, chevy, you can tell between a malibu and a impalla, even from distance. Grand Am, Grand Prix, nearly same.

In fact, my neightbors has a Grand Prix, and lease ended, they got a Grand Am, why? Cause it is the same damn car!

The whole point is that 1. if you call it a GTO, at least make it looks a bit different. Or even if keeping it the same, if you say that hte general market doesn't care for heritage, then they dont care for name. So why not name it "Pontiac _____"

In that case, we would have no problems at all with this car.

the whole point, is not that they are bad cars, but they are molesting the heritage.

Even Impala, to have hte SS name, come on. I mean name it Impala SE, and i would have no problems with it.



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93 Patriot Red Z28 - A4, 3.23 Gears
*Mods*: Hooker Super Competition Catback, Holley 58MM Throttle Body, Holley Powershot Filter, 160* Thermostat, A. Anderson Programming Chip, Aeromaks Cold Air Intake System

Audio: JVC KDSH77 HU, Infiniti Kappa 6.5"
Max's Patriot Red 93 Z

Time: 14.052@98.23, 2.193 60', Street Tires, Hot & Humid

muckz

Really? And I guess 2 door Grand Am and 2 door Grand Prix do not? Moreover, Grand Am and GTO are identical looking from the side?

Quote:

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The GTO, the Grand Prix and the Grand am look nearly identical, cept one is stretched more than the other.

You can do the same thing to Geo Storm (although I do think it's pathetic I have to dwell on the point which was stated in sarcasm to begin with). Stretch it out, add foglights - the front Camaro. Stretch it lengthwise, widen out the overhead pillar, voila! Camaro.

Quote:

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Then chop off 2 doors, and it is a GTO. Put on a chevy plate, and it is a Monte Carlo.

If you compare 2-door Pontiac Grand Prix to Chevy Monte Carlo, and you state that those 2 cars are very similar - my argument against GTO and Grand Prix really is a waste of time.

Quote:

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At least a GEO Storm and Camaro were two wayy different cars, and looked different from the side.

But I bet if you saw one in rear view mirror, a little stretched, you'd think it was Camaro.

Quote:

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But honestly, nearly all Pontiac cars look one in the same.

As much as you can tell that 3-series is a BMW and 5-series is a BMW. Or you would recognize that A4 is built by Audi and A6 is built by Audi. Yet you won't mistaken one for the other.

You must remember the original Tempest and GTO. Were they similar? Yes. How? Very. If you think that now Grand Am and Grand Prix are practically the same car, you surely wouldn't tell a difference between Tempest and GTO.

Quote:

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In fact, my neightbors has a Grand Prix, and lease ended, they got a Grand Am, why? Cause it is the same damn car!

And I bet the salesperson tricked them, because they still think they drive the same Grand Prix?

Quote:

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Or even if keeping it the same, if you say that hte general market doesn't care for heritage, then they dont care for name. So why not name it "Pontiac _____"

GTO name is mostly known to the folks in 30's and over. The price tag of this GTO certainly means that the car isn't for boys or even younger buyers (20's). By naming the car GTO GM attempted to lurk the older generation into liking/buying this upcoming car because they thought that the car would have enough performance/style to stand up to the name. This is why Bob Lutz got excited, because this car, unlike FWD impala SS or monte SS, is what older muscle cars were - RWD, V8, couple, etc... GM most likely thought that car's performance would give it a reputation that's sufficient to be worthy of GTO name. Hence not much money spent on visuals / styling. Perhaps now they feel a little different, having received criticism from enthusiasts, but I doubt there's anything they can change at this point. Even if they could, why bother, they're selling FWD cars badged as SS...

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the whole point, is not that they are bad cars, but they are molesting the heritage.

While I agree that GM has been molesting the heritage to a great extent, especially with FWD vehicles, I must disagree on GTO. The car doesn't have visual cues to the past - but it does have performance to back up its name. That's the whole point.

Quote:

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Even Impala, to have hte SS name, come on. I mean name it Impala SE, and i would have no problems with it.

Good point. I feel likewise.


[edit] And please tell me you saw, in person, Monaro coupe, and you were able to make sufficient judgement.[/edit]

[This message has been edited by muckz (edited July 04, 2002).]

IMPALA64

The current Impala is a good car, it just does'nt deseve the Impala name. Just as You wouldnt want your next Camaro FWD. Call it something other than Impala.

muckz

Very true, current Impalas are very good cars - they sell well, I like their packaging, appearance, etc... But they should've named it something else

Sixer-Bird

Well said! I agree 100%!


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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash