Not so fast 300C fans.....
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Originally posted by guionM
But the more Chrysler 300, Dodge Magnum, and hopefully the Dodge Charger sells, the more stupid GM will realize they look with their "Go painfully slow" approach in reintroducing RWD cars. Chrysler is proving FWD isn't life support, and you can actually sell cars without packing on $6,000 of bribe money. That's all.
But the more Chrysler 300, Dodge Magnum, and hopefully the Dodge Charger sells, the more stupid GM will realize they look with their "Go painfully slow" approach in reintroducing RWD cars. Chrysler is proving FWD isn't life support, and you can actually sell cars without packing on $6,000 of bribe money. That's all.
GM needs a 300C competitor in 2004, not 2007 - or more likely - 2009!
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Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
With all due respect, that didn't defend the 'cookie cutter' arguement,
With all due respect, that didn't defend the 'cookie cutter' arguement,
Try as they might, GM just can't produce a distinctive or charismatic mainstream product. Chrysler pulled it off with the 300C, Nissan has had some cars that hit (and some that didn't) and GM is just running around in circles.
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Joined: May 1998
Posts: 317
From: Maumee, OH
It's kind of funny actually. When you build up something (like a car) this much, there's going to be a bigger backlash when a "flaw" is found. I don't think any sensible person here believes that there aren't problems with all cars on some level. You have to admit though, it's funny to see who scrambles to defend the cause, pro or con.
My original point was that unless you just have $30,000+ of disposable income, it's not worth being a guinea pig. I don't get hyped about anything. I am slightly hyped about a possible new Camaro, but I temper that with the possibility of there not being a Z28 in the first year AND the fact that I cannot afford the time it would take to own a first-year model.
I've stated before, it doesn't matter when a new Camaro comes out, I won't be buying until the year after, or later if they delay the Z28.
My original point was that unless you just have $30,000+ of disposable income, it's not worth being a guinea pig. I don't get hyped about anything. I am slightly hyped about a possible new Camaro, but I temper that with the possibility of there not being a Z28 in the first year AND the fact that I cannot afford the time it would take to own a first-year model.
I've stated before, it doesn't matter when a new Camaro comes out, I won't be buying until the year after, or later if they delay the Z28.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Originally posted by RoMaD
My original point was that unless you just have $30,000+ of disposable income, it's not worth being a guinea pig. I don't get hyped about anything. I am slightly hyped about a possible new Camaro, but I temper that with the possibility of there not being a Z28 in the first year AND the fact that I cannot afford the time it would take to own a first-year model.
I've stated before, it doesn't matter when a new Camaro comes out, I won't be buying until the year after, or later if they delay the Z28.
My original point was that unless you just have $30,000+ of disposable income, it's not worth being a guinea pig. I don't get hyped about anything. I am slightly hyped about a possible new Camaro, but I temper that with the possibility of there not being a Z28 in the first year AND the fact that I cannot afford the time it would take to own a first-year model.
I've stated before, it doesn't matter when a new Camaro comes out, I won't be buying until the year after, or later if they delay the Z28.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,646
From: Portland, OR
Originally posted by redzed
I'm just say that, relatively speaking, not a single Epsilon car is the leader in its segment. They all look different, but the mediocrity is "baked in." The weird thing is they aren't even "mediocre" in a way that is uniform accross the whole platform.
Try as they might, GM just can't produce a distinctive or charismatic mainstream product. Chrysler pulled it off with the 300C, Nissan has had some cars that hit (and some that didn't) and GM is just running around in circles.
I'm just say that, relatively speaking, not a single Epsilon car is the leader in its segment. They all look different, but the mediocrity is "baked in." The weird thing is they aren't even "mediocre" in a way that is uniform accross the whole platform.
Try as they might, GM just can't produce a distinctive or charismatic mainstream product. Chrysler pulled it off with the 300C, Nissan has had some cars that hit (and some that didn't) and GM is just running around in circles.
The Corvette seems distintive and charismatic. I think the G6 could be with it's long wheelbae/short overhang proportions. This is really an endless arguement tho, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all....
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,650
From: Indianapolis, IN
Originally posted by redzed
1. The new Malibu is just as dull as the old one, except for the "excitement" of the hideous and overpriced Maxx.
Ok, well that's your opinion. I don't find the Camry or Accord very exciting visually, either. The Mazda 6 is nice looking, and the Altima is ok. Mainstream family sedans are typically somewhat boring looking. Some of us like that about them; they have clean, conservative shapes that you can dress up nicely with some wheels and tires, etc. But still just opinion.
2. The G6 looks set to continue the Pontiac tradition of a backseat that is rendered useless by a lack of headroom. Worse yet - is 200hp for $25k a good performance value? It's obvious that GM management still hasn't noticed the 250hp Altima. Or maybe they're just hoping that Pontiac buyers don't visit Nissan franchises.
I don't think the back seat is as bad as in the Grand Prix (which is admittedly way too low). I'll check it out next time I'm walking by one that's unlocked. As for power, the mid-year 3.9L/245 hp with the six speed manual should do just fine against the Altima (which hasn't approached even Grand Am sales figures, btw, has it?). The G6 will be easily competitive with the Altima and G6 for the "distinctive/sporty" midsize sedan class (as opposed to the staid/conservative Impy/Malibu/Camry/Accord section).
3. The Saab 9-3 is clawing around at the bottom of the near-luxury class, just like the old 900/9-3 which was probably worse. In this segment the 4-cylinder-only powertrain is something of a joke, but not as big a joke as in the similarly sized 9-5. (By the way, what's the point of offering two Opel Vectra based cars?) I've taken the appearance of the bogus 9-2X to mean that the 9-3 is something of a flop.
It is also priced lower than a similarly equipped 3 series or C-Class, and I don't think it is at the bottom at all. Sure, most people question a small boosted 4 against "smooth" sixes, like the 90 degree gem in the C-class (
my uncle has a C240 automatic awd, and in addition to being horribly slow, that six sounds pretty lame - GM got ripped for years for the 3800 being a 90 degree, but I digress). But Saab has always had a uniqueness about it, and has done turbos well for years. As for the 9-2x indicating that the 9-3 is a flop, I don't think so. The current 9-3 boosted Saab sales by double digit percentages when it came out, and it still sells well to my knowledge. I'm a 3 series fan myself, but BMW is about to ruin the 3 just like they did the 7 and the 5. So while they may have the rwd that Saab lacks (until Saab goes awd), they will soon have an ugly (imo) near-luxury car that has a great line 6 and likely good steering and handling. I've driven the 9-3 a few times, including a lightly optioned Linear with the low pressure turbo and 5 speed automatic, and it was OK. Drove that one back to back with a 330xi, actually. I've also driven an Arc or Vector with the higher output turbo and the six speed, and that was a really nice car. Of course, that is just my opinion as well, as is my belief that the 9-3 is one of the prettiest sedans you can buy right now.
1. The new Malibu is just as dull as the old one, except for the "excitement" of the hideous and overpriced Maxx.
Ok, well that's your opinion. I don't find the Camry or Accord very exciting visually, either. The Mazda 6 is nice looking, and the Altima is ok. Mainstream family sedans are typically somewhat boring looking. Some of us like that about them; they have clean, conservative shapes that you can dress up nicely with some wheels and tires, etc. But still just opinion.
2. The G6 looks set to continue the Pontiac tradition of a backseat that is rendered useless by a lack of headroom. Worse yet - is 200hp for $25k a good performance value? It's obvious that GM management still hasn't noticed the 250hp Altima. Or maybe they're just hoping that Pontiac buyers don't visit Nissan franchises.
I don't think the back seat is as bad as in the Grand Prix (which is admittedly way too low). I'll check it out next time I'm walking by one that's unlocked. As for power, the mid-year 3.9L/245 hp with the six speed manual should do just fine against the Altima (which hasn't approached even Grand Am sales figures, btw, has it?). The G6 will be easily competitive with the Altima and G6 for the "distinctive/sporty" midsize sedan class (as opposed to the staid/conservative Impy/Malibu/Camry/Accord section).
3. The Saab 9-3 is clawing around at the bottom of the near-luxury class, just like the old 900/9-3 which was probably worse. In this segment the 4-cylinder-only powertrain is something of a joke, but not as big a joke as in the similarly sized 9-5. (By the way, what's the point of offering two Opel Vectra based cars?) I've taken the appearance of the bogus 9-2X to mean that the 9-3 is something of a flop.
It is also priced lower than a similarly equipped 3 series or C-Class, and I don't think it is at the bottom at all. Sure, most people question a small boosted 4 against "smooth" sixes, like the 90 degree gem in the C-class (
my uncle has a C240 automatic awd, and in addition to being horribly slow, that six sounds pretty lame - GM got ripped for years for the 3800 being a 90 degree, but I digress). But Saab has always had a uniqueness about it, and has done turbos well for years. As for the 9-2x indicating that the 9-3 is a flop, I don't think so. The current 9-3 boosted Saab sales by double digit percentages when it came out, and it still sells well to my knowledge. I'm a 3 series fan myself, but BMW is about to ruin the 3 just like they did the 7 and the 5. So while they may have the rwd that Saab lacks (until Saab goes awd), they will soon have an ugly (imo) near-luxury car that has a great line 6 and likely good steering and handling. I've driven the 9-3 a few times, including a lightly optioned Linear with the low pressure turbo and 5 speed automatic, and it was OK. Drove that one back to back with a 330xi, actually. I've also driven an Arc or Vector with the higher output turbo and the six speed, and that was a really nice car. Of course, that is just my opinion as well, as is my belief that the 9-3 is one of the prettiest sedans you can buy right now.
Last edited by 96_Camaro_B4C; Jun 25, 2004 at 03:46 PM.
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Posts: 1,954
Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I don't know. This is all in the eye of the beholder, but I think Caddy's 'Art and Science' is extremely disctictive and charismatic. They've managed to keep the crisp egdes without building a box (ala 1980's).
I don't know. This is all in the eye of the beholder, but I think Caddy's 'Art and Science' is extremely disctictive and charismatic. They've managed to keep the crisp egdes without building a box (ala 1980's).
Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
The Corvette seems distintive and charismatic.
The Corvette seems distintive and charismatic.
The C6? Heck, no!
Originally posted by dream '94 Z28
I think the G6 could be with it's long wheelbae/short overhang proportions. This is really an endless arguement tho, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all....
I think the G6 could be with it's long wheelbae/short overhang proportions. This is really an endless arguement tho, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all....
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,650
From: Indianapolis, IN
Originally posted by redzed
The problem is that the "go painfully slow" approach is applied to every mainstream product at GM - except for the "rush-jobs" like the half-baked CTS-V and flawed GTO. Right now, GM is way behind in terms of automatic transmission technology, and even the profit generating full-sized truck and SUV line is positively ancient.
GM needs a 300C competitor in 2004, not 2007 - or more likely - 2009!
The problem is that the "go painfully slow" approach is applied to every mainstream product at GM - except for the "rush-jobs" like the half-baked CTS-V and flawed GTO. Right now, GM is way behind in terms of automatic transmission technology, and even the profit generating full-sized truck and SUV line is positively ancient.
GM needs a 300C competitor in 2004, not 2007 - or more likely - 2009!
GM may be behind in getting the six speeds out, but they are not really behind in terms of transmission "technology", except for maybe the boondoggle CVTs. GMs trannys are still regarded as among the smoothest and most refined in the industry. BMW bought (for years and years) the 5L40E for their 3 and 5 series. So Caddy is using it for a couple of years until the 6 speed come out.
As for the trucks being ancient: Please. They are older than the Titan, Ram, and F150, sure. They were state of the art in '99, but they are near the end of their product cycle. The Ram was ancient until it's '02 redesign (WAY more ancient than the Silverado is now, which is still heralded as having an excellent frame and body, excellent ride and manners, quietness, etc.). So was the F series until its '04 redesign. The Tundra is probably more ancient than the GMT800s. Really the most dated part of the Silverado is the interior. Technologically, they are not ancient, and a new one is right around the corner. There is always a leapfrog effect as companies introduce the new generations. Silverado ruled from '99 to '02, then the Ram was the hot ticket (and still only competitive with the 800s), then the F Series and Titan for '04. Next will be the Tundra and the big GMs again...
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Originally posted by RoMaD
It's kind of funny actually. When you build up something (like a car) this much, there's going to be a bigger backlash when a "flaw" is found. I don't think any sensible person here believes that there aren't problems with all cars on some level. You have to admit though, it's funny to see who scrambles to defend the cause, pro or con.
My original point was that unless you just have $30,000+ of disposable income, it's not worth being a guinea pig. I don't get hyped about anything. I am slightly hyped about a possible new Camaro, but I temper that with the possibility of there not being a Z28 in the first year AND the fact that I cannot afford the time it would take to own a first-year model.
I've stated before, it doesn't matter when a new Camaro comes out, I won't be buying until the year after, or later if they delay the Z28.
It's kind of funny actually. When you build up something (like a car) this much, there's going to be a bigger backlash when a "flaw" is found. I don't think any sensible person here believes that there aren't problems with all cars on some level. You have to admit though, it's funny to see who scrambles to defend the cause, pro or con.
My original point was that unless you just have $30,000+ of disposable income, it's not worth being a guinea pig. I don't get hyped about anything. I am slightly hyped about a possible new Camaro, but I temper that with the possibility of there not being a Z28 in the first year AND the fact that I cannot afford the time it would take to own a first-year model.
I've stated before, it doesn't matter when a new Camaro comes out, I won't be buying until the year after, or later if they delay the Z28.
The GTO avoids alot of this. The car has been out for about 2 years before we got it imported here, so the bugs are gone (save a clutch cable issue on a few that ended up here). It's also going to be fun to see how quickly those Pontiac markups disappear once the hotter looking 2005 GTOs show up.
The Mustang I think is going to be one of the best launches. Ford is really sweating the details, and is putting the emphasis on getting the introduction right. The Mustang was supposed to be out by last April, but Ford moved the intro date to September in order not to risk any problems associated with rushing to meet a intro deadline.
I love the 300, and I just saw the 1st Magnum on the street blowing by me on Monday (Boy those grilles are big!). I still wouldn't buy one just yet just like I wouldn't buy a new 1st year Camaro unless (like Bill Ford is doing with the Mustang) Rick Wagoneer himself along with Bob Lutz were personally involved with, had frequent reports on, and was taking special attention to making sure the Camaro went off without a hitch.
Not likely.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,650
From: Indianapolis, IN
Originally posted by redzed
The stacked headlights were supposed to evoke Cadillac's golden era in the 1960's. Instead, that detail reminds me more of an Isuzu concept truck from the '90s.
I don't care what it's supposed to evoke; the design theme looks good, and it is clearly working. You don't have to like it to admit that it has been a success so far (as will the STS).
The C5? Yes!
The C6? Heck, no!
Again, opinion only. I love them both, but right now the C6 is definitely more distinctive. Some see some Viper in the front, but many saw RX7 in the C5s doors/sides. The C6 has much sharper detailing in the fenders, quarter panels, taillights, roof lines, etc.
The G6 is definitely a Pontiac, but that's about all I see. I think they've taken the squished, swoopy roofline thing about as far as it's going to go. Again, this crap can be argued all day. Opinions about styling are just that, opinions. Man, is this thing of topic or what? 
The stacked headlights were supposed to evoke Cadillac's golden era in the 1960's. Instead, that detail reminds me more of an Isuzu concept truck from the '90s.
I don't care what it's supposed to evoke; the design theme looks good, and it is clearly working. You don't have to like it to admit that it has been a success so far (as will the STS).
The C5? Yes!
The C6? Heck, no!
Again, opinion only. I love them both, but right now the C6 is definitely more distinctive. Some see some Viper in the front, but many saw RX7 in the C5s doors/sides. The C6 has much sharper detailing in the fenders, quarter panels, taillights, roof lines, etc.
The G6 is definitely a Pontiac, but that's about all I see. I think they've taken the squished, swoopy roofline thing about as far as it's going to go. Again, this crap can be argued all day. Opinions about styling are just that, opinions. Man, is this thing of topic or what?
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,232
From: Orlando, FL USA
Originally posted by guionM
The point here is twofold. First, US cars are no better or worse than what even exclusive car companies are doing. Actually, even GM's recent rash of recalls ARE NOT as bad by a long shot (save Aurora's cracking fuel lines) as some of the other recalls issued by others. My point wasn't to unfairly bash GM, just add perspective.
The second point is that if the worse thing the new 300 has to deal with is a slight pull to the right on early models, that still puts it ahead of every car on the road, especially considering it's only been on the assembly line for a couple of months.
The point here is twofold. First, US cars are no better or worse than what even exclusive car companies are doing. Actually, even GM's recent rash of recalls ARE NOT as bad by a long shot (save Aurora's cracking fuel lines) as some of the other recalls issued by others. My point wasn't to unfairly bash GM, just add perspective.
The second point is that if the worse thing the new 300 has to deal with is a slight pull to the right on early models, that still puts it ahead of every car on the road, especially considering it's only been on the assembly line for a couple of months.
Originally posted by guionM
It's also going to be fun to see how quickly those Pontiac markups disappear once the hotter looking 2005 GTOs show up.
It's also going to be fun to see how quickly those Pontiac markups disappear once the hotter looking 2005 GTOs show up.
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