Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by graham
#6. To hell with IRS, the IRS and ... well... thats all.
Buy a used Vette if you just like replacing CV boots and axles.
Buy a used Vette if you just like replacing CV boots and axles.
Guy is DEAD on about this. F-body has NEVER been world class and efforts here to make it a Chevy G35 are well intentioned but misguided.
F-body has to be a good performer for the PRICE, which has to be low...even if it falls short of higher priced cars.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by guionM
After alot of quality time & over a couple of thousand miles in this rental Mustang, I think I have a pretty clear perspective as to what the next Camaro needs to be and things I feel GM needs to do to ensure it's success.
Not to worry, there will probably be plenty of Pontiac G6's (including the hardtop convertible) available for fleet sales to Alamo and Enterprise.
Originally Posted by guionM
1. GM needs to be ready to ignore some of the more whiny elements of Camaro's fan base. They aren't looking out for Camaro's future.
Anyone coming to this site in order to get a handle on what the next Camaro should be (much like what Ford did for direction with the Mustang), they are going to go away disgusted. They will see plenty of "I'll never buy a GM product again if...", but no actual viewpoint, information or input that will increase Camaro's sales and guarantee it's survival. Someone said it best in another thread, there are people here that don't want to see the Camaro return..
Anyone coming to this site in order to get a handle on what the next Camaro should be (much like what Ford did for direction with the Mustang), they are going to go away disgusted. They will see plenty of "I'll never buy a GM product again if...", but no actual viewpoint, information or input that will increase Camaro's sales and guarantee it's survival. Someone said it best in another thread, there are people here that don't want to see the Camaro return..
Would I like "to see the Camaro return." YES. I can assure you that now that winter has lifted, the Camaro in my garage will most definitely return to public highways.
Originally Posted by guionM
2. Keep focused on what Camaro has been & keep the formula. There's too many people who want to move Camaro someplace else. Don't forget what made Camaro what it is!
Camaro was NEVER the ultimate performance car. Camaro was also NEVER a world class automobile. Any advice taking Camaro in that direction should be backhanded into last month. Camaro is about performance on the cheap and agressive looks. Today's market demands quality assembly & materials, so that much is a given..
Camaro was NEVER the ultimate performance car. Camaro was also NEVER a world class automobile. Any advice taking Camaro in that direction should be backhanded into last month. Camaro is about performance on the cheap and agressive looks. Today's market demands quality assembly & materials, so that much is a given..
Originally Posted by guionM
The new Mustang is a really good car. There's alot there that GM needs to learn, but there's also alot of openings it leaves GM to make the 5th gen better..
Originally Posted by guionM
1. Make the interior a place you want to spend time in.
Mustang's interior is a nice place to spend a day (or 600 miles). The industrial interior look doesn't cut it anymore. It looks cheap. Pay more attention to details and how the interior feels.
GM has a big opening here. Mustang's interior looks top notch (awesome steering wheel & great looking back seat), but the door panels and instrament panel is all hard plastic. .
Mustang's interior is a nice place to spend a day (or 600 miles). The industrial interior look doesn't cut it anymore. It looks cheap. Pay more attention to details and how the interior feels.
GM has a big opening here. Mustang's interior looks top notch (awesome steering wheel & great looking back seat), but the door panels and instrament panel is all hard plastic. .
Originally Posted by guionM
2. Make a base model to be proud of!
Base Mustangs have never been worth a warm pittle of spit. But THIS new base Mustang is something else. It's shockingly quick, well equipted, handles extremly well, and in no way resembles a "stripper" model. At a price just under $19,000, it's no wonder I'm seeing these things everywhere.
GM's opening here is that Chevy has always been about value. Design can go a long way (the old base Camaros felt like base Camaros). Don't spare the trimmings. People buy coupes because of style or personal expression. It shouldn't look like an entry level Neon inside..
Base Mustangs have never been worth a warm pittle of spit. But THIS new base Mustang is something else. It's shockingly quick, well equipted, handles extremly well, and in no way resembles a "stripper" model. At a price just under $19,000, it's no wonder I'm seeing these things everywhere.
GM's opening here is that Chevy has always been about value. Design can go a long way (the old base Camaros felt like base Camaros). Don't spare the trimmings. People buy coupes because of style or personal expression. It shouldn't look like an entry level Neon inside..
Originally Posted by guionM
3. Make a "Right" size Camaro.
The Mustang feels a bit too big. At 5'9" with the seat jacked up, I still have a fist-width amount of room above my head. Ford could have easily cut 3" off the height without anyone noticing loss headroom inside. The trunk is almost too big for this type of car. From the drivers seat, the car feels alot bigger than it is. A Camaro with the same seating position with a lower roof height, perhaps less rear overhang, and less overall length would be a winner in my book as long as it doesn't compromise entry/exit..
The Mustang feels a bit too big. At 5'9" with the seat jacked up, I still have a fist-width amount of room above my head. Ford could have easily cut 3" off the height without anyone noticing loss headroom inside. The trunk is almost too big for this type of car. From the drivers seat, the car feels alot bigger than it is. A Camaro with the same seating position with a lower roof height, perhaps less rear overhang, and less overall length would be a winner in my book as long as it doesn't compromise entry/exit..
Originally Posted by guionM
4. Make a profit!
Ford happens to have a huge Mustang fan whose name is on the side of their building. GM doesn't have that luxury with the Camaro. Right now, GM has a few top people fighting hard to get the next Camaro on the streets. But these people won't be around forever (especially if GM's profits don't turn around ASAP). The way to ensure Camaro's future is to make sure it's profitable to the point it's a permanent part of GM's portfolio. That way the next Ron Zarella team won't look at the car as an albatross around the company's neck and take the 1st opportunity to kill it again. .
Ford happens to have a huge Mustang fan whose name is on the side of their building. GM doesn't have that luxury with the Camaro. Right now, GM has a few top people fighting hard to get the next Camaro on the streets. But these people won't be around forever (especially if GM's profits don't turn around ASAP). The way to ensure Camaro's future is to make sure it's profitable to the point it's a permanent part of GM's portfolio. That way the next Ron Zarella team won't look at the car as an albatross around the company's neck and take the 1st opportunity to kill it again. .
Originally Posted by guionM
5. Finally, Don't get tunnel vision on performance.
Reading this forum, one would get the idea that a Camaro with a hugely powerful engine & IRS would sell like gangbusters. But reading the marketplace comes up with an entirely different set of priorities. Any bonehead can make a car quick, and there is alot of pressure to put IRS on the car. But focus on the things that is going to make the car desired by everyone. Understand that the majority of buyers are going to go by seat of the pants and visuals to judge the car. Focus on that. If it boils down to choosing between spending $300 on the interior or IRS, go for the interior.
Reading this forum, one would get the idea that a Camaro with a hugely powerful engine & IRS would sell like gangbusters. But reading the marketplace comes up with an entirely different set of priorities. Any bonehead can make a car quick, and there is alot of pressure to put IRS on the car. But focus on the things that is going to make the car desired by everyone. Understand that the majority of buyers are going to go by seat of the pants and visuals to judge the car. Focus on that. If it boils down to choosing between spending $300 on the interior or IRS, go for the interior.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by 94Z28/03mach1
Quote:
The Mustang feels a bit too big. At 5'9" with the seat jacked up, I still have a fist-width amount of room above my head. Ford could have easily cut 3" off the height without anyone noticing loss headroom inside. The trunk is almost too big for this type of car. From the drivers seat, the car feels alot bigger than it is. A Camaro with the same seating position with a lower roof height, perhaps less rear overhang, and less overall length would be a winner in my book as long as it doesn't compromise entry/exit.
for those of us 6' or better,the new stang fits just right.With my mach 1 my head hit the roof and side support unless reclined too far back.I now have plenty of headroom.My wife is 5'6 and she gets the seat up all the way and she is comfortable.
also,I like the big trunk.and with the 1000 watt stereo, you need the room for the sub in the trunk.
The Mustang feels a bit too big. At 5'9" with the seat jacked up, I still have a fist-width amount of room above my head. Ford could have easily cut 3" off the height without anyone noticing loss headroom inside. The trunk is almost too big for this type of car. From the drivers seat, the car feels alot bigger than it is. A Camaro with the same seating position with a lower roof height, perhaps less rear overhang, and less overall length would be a winner in my book as long as it doesn't compromise entry/exit.
for those of us 6' or better,the new stang fits just right.With my mach 1 my head hit the roof and side support unless reclined too far back.I now have plenty of headroom.My wife is 5'6 and she gets the seat up all the way and she is comfortable.
also,I like the big trunk.and with the 1000 watt stereo, you need the room for the sub in the trunk.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by guionM
After alot of quality time & over a couple of thousand miles in this rental Mustang, I think I have a pretty clear perspective as to what the next Camaro needs to be and things I feel GM needs to do to ensure it's success.
1. GM needs to be ready to ignore some of the more whiny elements of Camaro's fan base. They aren't looking out for Camaro's future.
Anyone coming to this site in order to get a handle on what the next Camaro should be (much like what Ford did for direction with the Mustang), they are going to go away disgusted. They will see plenty of "I'll never buy a GM product again if...", but no actual viewpoint, information or input that will increase Camaro's sales and guarantee it's survival. Someone said it best in another thread, there are people here that don't want to see the Camaro return.
2. Keep focused on what Camaro has been & keep the formula. There's too many people who want to move Camaro someplace else. Don't forget what made Camaro what it is!
Camaro was NEVER the ultimate performance car. Camaro was also NEVER a world class automobile. Any advice taking Camaro in that direction should be backhanded into last month. Camaro is about performance on the cheap and agressive looks. Today's market demands quality assembly & materials, so that much is a given.
The new Mustang is a really good car. There's alot there that GM needs to learn, but there's also alot of openings it leaves GM to make the 5th gen better.
1. Make the interior a place you want to spend time in.
Mustang's interior is a nice place to spend a day (or 600 miles). The industrial interior look doesn't cut it anymore. It looks cheap. Pay more attention to details and how the interior feels.
GM has a big opening here. Mustang's interior looks top notch (awesome steering wheel & great looking back seat), but the door panels and instrament panel is all hard plastic.
2. Make a base model to be proud of!
Base Mustangs have never been worth a warm pittle of spit. But THIS new base Mustang is something else. It's shockingly quick, well equipted, handles extremly well, and in no way resembles a "stripper" model. At a price just under $19,000, it's no wonder I'm seeing these things everywhere.
GM's opening here is that Chevy has always been about value. Design can go a long way (the old base Camaros felt like base Camaros). Don't spare the trimmings. People buy coupes because of style or personal expression. It shouldn't look like an entry level Neon inside.
3. Make a "Right" size Camaro.
The Mustang feels a bit too big. At 5'9" with the seat jacked up, I still have a fist-width amount of room above my head. Ford could have easily cut 3" off the height without anyone noticing loss headroom inside. The trunk is almost too big for this type of car. From the drivers seat, the car feels alot bigger than it is. A Camaro with the same seating position with a lower roof height, perhaps less rear overhang, and less overall length would be a winner in my book as long as it doesn't compromise entry/exit.
4. Make a profit!
Ford happens to have a huge Mustang fan whose name is on the side of their building. GM doesn't have that luxury with the Camaro. Right now, GM has a few top people fighting hard to get the next Camaro on the streets. But these people won't be around forever (especially if GM's profits don't turn around ASAP). The way to ensure Camaro's future is to make sure it's profitable to the point it's a permanent part of GM's portfolio. That way the next Ron Zarella team won't look at the car as an albatross around the company's neck and take the 1st opportunity to kill it again.
5. Finally, Don't get tunnel vision on performance.
Reading this forum, one would get the idea that a Camaro with a hugely powerful engine & IRS would sell like gangbusters. But reading the marketplace comes up with an entirely different set of priorities. Any bonehead can make a car quick, and there is alot of pressure to put IRS on the car. But focus on the things that is going to make the car desired by everyone. Understand that the majority of buyers are going to go by seat of the pants and visuals to judge the car. Focus on that. If it boils down to choosing between spending $300 on the interior or IRS, go for the interior.
1. GM needs to be ready to ignore some of the more whiny elements of Camaro's fan base. They aren't looking out for Camaro's future.
Anyone coming to this site in order to get a handle on what the next Camaro should be (much like what Ford did for direction with the Mustang), they are going to go away disgusted. They will see plenty of "I'll never buy a GM product again if...", but no actual viewpoint, information or input that will increase Camaro's sales and guarantee it's survival. Someone said it best in another thread, there are people here that don't want to see the Camaro return.
2. Keep focused on what Camaro has been & keep the formula. There's too many people who want to move Camaro someplace else. Don't forget what made Camaro what it is!
Camaro was NEVER the ultimate performance car. Camaro was also NEVER a world class automobile. Any advice taking Camaro in that direction should be backhanded into last month. Camaro is about performance on the cheap and agressive looks. Today's market demands quality assembly & materials, so that much is a given.
The new Mustang is a really good car. There's alot there that GM needs to learn, but there's also alot of openings it leaves GM to make the 5th gen better.
1. Make the interior a place you want to spend time in.
Mustang's interior is a nice place to spend a day (or 600 miles). The industrial interior look doesn't cut it anymore. It looks cheap. Pay more attention to details and how the interior feels.
GM has a big opening here. Mustang's interior looks top notch (awesome steering wheel & great looking back seat), but the door panels and instrament panel is all hard plastic.
2. Make a base model to be proud of!
Base Mustangs have never been worth a warm pittle of spit. But THIS new base Mustang is something else. It's shockingly quick, well equipted, handles extremly well, and in no way resembles a "stripper" model. At a price just under $19,000, it's no wonder I'm seeing these things everywhere.
GM's opening here is that Chevy has always been about value. Design can go a long way (the old base Camaros felt like base Camaros). Don't spare the trimmings. People buy coupes because of style or personal expression. It shouldn't look like an entry level Neon inside.
3. Make a "Right" size Camaro.
The Mustang feels a bit too big. At 5'9" with the seat jacked up, I still have a fist-width amount of room above my head. Ford could have easily cut 3" off the height without anyone noticing loss headroom inside. The trunk is almost too big for this type of car. From the drivers seat, the car feels alot bigger than it is. A Camaro with the same seating position with a lower roof height, perhaps less rear overhang, and less overall length would be a winner in my book as long as it doesn't compromise entry/exit.
4. Make a profit!
Ford happens to have a huge Mustang fan whose name is on the side of their building. GM doesn't have that luxury with the Camaro. Right now, GM has a few top people fighting hard to get the next Camaro on the streets. But these people won't be around forever (especially if GM's profits don't turn around ASAP). The way to ensure Camaro's future is to make sure it's profitable to the point it's a permanent part of GM's portfolio. That way the next Ron Zarella team won't look at the car as an albatross around the company's neck and take the 1st opportunity to kill it again.
5. Finally, Don't get tunnel vision on performance.
Reading this forum, one would get the idea that a Camaro with a hugely powerful engine & IRS would sell like gangbusters. But reading the marketplace comes up with an entirely different set of priorities. Any bonehead can make a car quick, and there is alot of pressure to put IRS on the car. But focus on the things that is going to make the car desired by everyone. Understand that the majority of buyers are going to go by seat of the pants and visuals to judge the car. Focus on that. If it boils down to choosing between spending $300 on the interior or IRS, go for the interior.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 757
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by redzed
Thanks for the desperate invitation for GM to indulge in some more price gouging.
GuionM, you should know as well as anyone that the cost of an IRS is only 1/6th of GM's $1,800/car "UAW penalty."
GuionM, you should know as well as anyone that the cost of an IRS is only 1/6th of GM's $1,800/car "UAW penalty."
Thus, GM has to look for other ways to cut costs. Ford is in very much the same position and has clearly proven that saving some money on the rear suspension will not affect sales.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,276
From: Chattanoga & Franklin
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by dav305z
Thus, GM has to look for other ways to cut costs. Ford is in very much the same position and has clearly proven that saving some money on the rear suspension will not affect sales.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,370
From: Germany
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
on the topic of F-Body advice, would it be feasible, if not a good idea to encurage modablity, and encourage it at the dealer by having dealer installed customization (after the puchase of course)
such as headers, or cams or whatever might be wanted?
I think that is half of the Camaro right there is modablity and not everyone knows that.
such as headers, or cams or whatever might be wanted?
I think that is half of the Camaro right there is modablity and not everyone knows that.
Disciple
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,479
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
I Autocross.
At our regular venue the north end is anything but smooth. The best I can do in that section is survive, and that's with Koni's, aftermarket LCA's, PHB and TA. That's why I wouldn't consider another Camaro without an IRS.
We'll have an '05 GT with a very competent driver out this summer. I won't be able to race the first few events so I hope to be there video camera in hand at the north end to see how well the Mustang live axle performs.
At our regular venue the north end is anything but smooth. The best I can do in that section is survive, and that's with Koni's, aftermarket LCA's, PHB and TA. That's why I wouldn't consider another Camaro without an IRS.
We'll have an '05 GT with a very competent driver out this summer. I won't be able to race the first few events so I hope to be there video camera in hand at the north end to see how well the Mustang live axle performs.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by NewbieWar
on the topic of F-Body advice, would it be feasible, if not a good idea to encurage modablity, and encourage it at the dealer by having dealer installed customization (after the puchase of course)
such as headers, or cams or whatever might be wanted?
I think that is half of the Camaro right there is modablity and not everyone knows that.
such as headers, or cams or whatever might be wanted?
I think that is half of the Camaro right there is modablity and not everyone knows that.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,646
From: Portland, OR
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by AronZ28
When you are the only ticket in town, people will overlook this. Not to mention I think the new Mustang is selling for the novelty styling alone, people are not buying them because they are state of the art.
I'm glad I'm not the olny one who thinks the Mustang's looks are gimicky. But still, if a lot of people like it......
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,870
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by AronZ28
When you are the only ticket in town, people will overlook this. Not to mention I think the new Mustang is selling for the novelty styling alone, people are not buying them because they are state of the art.
In the mustangs 41 year history and the 8+ million copies the've sold since, i doubt any single person bought it thinking Mustang was "state of the art". Pony cars were never state of the art. Never meant to be either. They're not sophisticated nor high-tech. Never were. Doesn't mean they should stick to 60's tech and not move forward, but on the other hand...lets not turn camaro into something it isn't.
In looking at mustang and camaro, they were never really about real comfort, refinement, practicality, tech saviness, etc.... They were always about real muscular aggressive looks, high hp, with most of the performance geared towards straightine performanc rather than autox, and with a decent back seat and trunk/hatch tossed in to make it a compromised yet somewhat practical car. They were always cheap high-performance car with a lot of compromises. Now there's plenty of room to improve on these compromises, but i'd put things like a better designed quality interior ahead of something like IRS.
Regardless of what we want in a camaro, at the end of the day, ANY 5th gen will have compromises built into it whether we like it or not. Some of us have matured past camaro/mustang tastes and have moved on to GTO's and vette's and that's fine. So for those seeking a better more refined package, there's always those two options.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by NewbieWar
on the topic of F-Body advice, would it be feasible, if not a good idea to encurage modablity, and encourage it at the dealer by having dealer installed customization (after the puchase of course)
such as headers, or cams or whatever might be wanted?
I think that is half of the Camaro right there is modablity and not everyone knows that.
such as headers, or cams or whatever might be wanted?
I think that is half of the Camaro right there is modablity and not everyone knows that.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 1,547
From: Panhandle of West Virginia
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by Gold_Rush
As mentioned in the other thread, there are plenty of sporty cars in the mustangs price range. It is far from being the only ticket in town imo. Yes, it is the only pony car left, but it is far from the only affordable sporty car or sports coupe left. Gotta give credit where credit is due. Ford just managed to make a mustang with styling that seems to appeal to the masses, and that offers a nice bang for your buck regardless of the axle that resides in the rear. People just find the overall package appealing. Of course, the Mustang name/novelty helps.
In the mustangs 41 year history and the 8+ million copies the've sold since, i doubt any single person bought it thinking Mustang was "state of the art". Pony cars were never state of the art. Never meant to be either. They're not sophisticated nor high-tech. Never were. Doesn't mean they should stick to 60's tech and not move forward, but on the other hand...lets not turn camaro into something it isn't.
In looking at mustang and camaro, they were never really about real comfort, refinement, practicality, tech saviness, etc.... They were always about real muscular aggressive looks, high hp, with most of the performance geared towards straightine performanc rather than autox, and with a decent back seat and trunk/hatch tossed in to make it a compromised yet somewhat practical car. They were always cheap high-performance car with a lot of compromises. Now there's plenty of room to improve on these compromises, but i'd put things like a better designed quality interior ahead of something like IRS.
Regardless of what we want in a camaro, at the end of the day, ANY 5th gen will have compromises built into it whether we like it or not. Some of us have matured past camaro/mustang tastes and have moved on to GTO's and vette's and that's fine. So for those seeking a better more refined package, there's always those two options.
In the mustangs 41 year history and the 8+ million copies the've sold since, i doubt any single person bought it thinking Mustang was "state of the art". Pony cars were never state of the art. Never meant to be either. They're not sophisticated nor high-tech. Never were. Doesn't mean they should stick to 60's tech and not move forward, but on the other hand...lets not turn camaro into something it isn't.
In looking at mustang and camaro, they were never really about real comfort, refinement, practicality, tech saviness, etc.... They were always about real muscular aggressive looks, high hp, with most of the performance geared towards straightine performanc rather than autox, and with a decent back seat and trunk/hatch tossed in to make it a compromised yet somewhat practical car. They were always cheap high-performance car with a lot of compromises. Now there's plenty of room to improve on these compromises, but i'd put things like a better designed quality interior ahead of something like IRS.
Regardless of what we want in a camaro, at the end of the day, ANY 5th gen will have compromises built into it whether we like it or not. Some of us have matured past camaro/mustang tastes and have moved on to GTO's and vette's and that's fine. So for those seeking a better more refined package, there's always those two options.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,472
From: South Bend, Indiana
Re: Next F-body advice after driving the new Mustang
Originally Posted by guionM
Camaro was NEVER the ultimate performance car. Camaro was also NEVER a world class automobile.
I strongly disagree here...When the LT1 and LS1 models came out, they were ultimate performance cars. The only cars that could perform even close to them cost double, and the only cars close to THOSE cars cost almost double more than them. So the Z28 and Formula were performing on par with cars costing 4x and higher, that's what I would call an ultimate performance car, at least relative to the market.