And this...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/030502/autos...search1_1.html

Short and sweet.

 

Funny, but in a time of economic grief, here's an OEM supplier that just set record profits and growth for itself...
on an average 14% margin - gross too!!!

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030502/def004_1.html

"Gross margin was an all-time first quarter record of 14.8%, a 100 basis point increase as compared to the 13.8% margin reported in the first quarter of 2002."

Yet GM, Ford, and DCM need 20-25% just to stay alive...

 

And here's another one to look at...
My cost for healthcare through my employer has gone fro $99/month in 2000 to $137 in 2003 - that's 37% total, or @ 10% annual accumulative. Who knows how much more my company is paying on my behalf too. And lo-the-behold, if my health insurance company isn't MORE profitable to show for it...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...cigna_earns_dc

Yup, that's the good ol' system at work for you.
But aren't we getting a great deal on health care these days? As opposed to Malaysians, Iraqis, or Afghans anyway?

 

Great debat guys

Here's something interesting. In another thread someone was saying Ford is going to release the 05 mustung summer of next year, at least the V6 and GT versions. Starting prices will be set at 18,000 I think is what was said. So going by that, I can't imagine a GT going for much more than 25,000, can you? That's 7,000 dollars over the base, which sounds reasonable.

Maybe I'm way off on that, but if the 05GT comes along for 25,000, why can't the new Camaro?

 

Rising gas prices are due to rising costs of crude, right?
That would mean that oil companies are having to pay more for their raw materials required to produce the product, right?
They claim they have to pass the higher costs on to the consumer, right?
So they theoretically aren't making any more money on us due to higher pump prices, right?
It all makes sense right?
At least that's what they want us to beleive anyways...

Then somebody explain these to me...
Chevron/Texaco
"ChevronTexaco said its profit almost tripled in the first quarter compared with a year ago, as the Iraq war and turmoil in Nigeria helped push crude oil and gas prices to historic highs. "

Shell
"Anglo-Dutch oil giant Royal Dutch/Shell Group saw its profits nearly double in the first three months of the year as oil prices soared in the run-up to the war in Iraq."

Exxon/Mobil
"The world's largest publicly-traded oil company says first-quarter profits more than tripled from a year ago. ExxonMobil credits higher prices for crude oil and natural gas."

Conoco/Phillips
"ConocoPhillips and Kerr-McGee, two large U.S. oil companies, posted blockbuster first-quarter results on Wednesday as soaring prices for oil, natural gas and refined fuels pumped up profits. "

British Petroleum (BP)
"Adjusted for one-time items, BP reported a quarterly replacement cost profit of $3.73 billion, up from $1.58 billion last year. " That's pretty much DOUBLE in one year.
"BP benefited from an average rise in crude prices of $11.05 per barrel compared to the same three months of 2002..." (Now somebody explain to me how the f__k they benefitted from paying more for the crude?!?! )

BP Direct
"British oil giant BP reported a 136-percent leap in quarterly profit, boosted by strong oil prices in the run-up to the war in Iraq."
"BP posted pro-forma profit, adjusted for special items, of 3.73 billion dollars (3.39 billion euros) for the first three months of 2003, which it said was a record result. "

Hess
"Integrated oil company Amerada Hess Corp. (NYSE:AHC - news) on Tuesday said first-quarter profit rose 25 percent as higher oil and gas prices boosted exploration and production income while tight petroleum product inventories buoyed refining margins."

So have I missed anybody?

Anybody got any questions about why pump prices go up now?



I could go on, but I need to get some work done and I think y'all get the point about how large corporate America is controlling OUR wallets to THEIR benefit.

I think I've given you enough to read for a while!
Proud

 

Lol, yeah but with 50% of US vehicle sales Trucks and SUV's, It seems like we are asking for it!!

PS: Don't even get me started on the rip offs that are health care and phone service. We'd need a whole other forum.

 

For what it's worth, I heard this on the radio today:

GM's April sales down 9% from last year.

Ford's April sales down 7% from last year.

DCX's April sales down 10% from last year.

They had some additional GM snippet about how GM's CAR sales contributed to most of that 9% decline. Go figure.

gt

 

Come on now. You can REALLY put out 400,000 fenders on a die WITHOUT having to pull it multiple times for a rebuild?? That adds a LOT of $$$ to the per unit cost! And while I might agree on principal about the high-school kid in the paint booth, It seems that a lot of people are slamming the amount the workers get paid, (And it does add up with pensions, health, etc.) but aren't these the same people who want the excellant fit and finish, good performance, etc? If you want the car companies to lower cost by cutting worker benefits don't complain when Jose and Juan screw up and your new car is a piece of sh*t. Also, we have to remember, (when we are thinking about how many years of training we have, and how few others have and they still make a decent wage) that there will be a continuing increase in the number of trained people out there in the workforce due to companies cutting labor costs and shipping our jobs to other countries. Perhaps then, when nobody can get a decent job here, and the poor quality of the products bring the costs down for everybody, then we will have a Corvette for a price some of these people think is fair. (Of course, since they will be unemployed, they STILL won't be able to afford it!!) In other words, if you want quality you have to pay for it. If you are willing to pay for it, don't complain if the person who brings you the quality makes a buck or two. If you are more concerned about cost than quality, don't complain about the people who prefer quality over cost. And last, when traveling the country looking for a new job because the guy who's job went to Mexico is willing to do yours for a couple of bucks less, remember (as the plane slowly rolls over, and hits the ground) You're the one that wanted lower qualified pilots who make less money. And that's the end of my slightly one-sided opinion.

 

I agree with a lot of what ProudPony and Werm have posted. For myself, I will NEVER buy a new car. Even if I buy into the medical care, advertising and creating new cars costs; cars depreciate in value too quick today. Most cars value cut in half at around 4-5 years, if not more.

I could not see myself paying anything more then 20 thousand dollars for a car. I would rather wait 5 or even 10 years to pick up an 03 Cobra or an 03 Vette and get it for 1/5th the price or even less. Spend another 5 grand into making it run fresh again and I still save more. The power level cars are going today, I won't be too much slower then the fastest cars on the road in 10 years.

For a beater car, I will never pay 20 grand for a 4 banger mobile or sedan. For that cost, I can pick up a used beater and keep it running for another 15 years+. I cringe when I hear my sister talking about paying 30 grand for a new Acura TL. Talk about media brain-washing, desire for status and peer pressure. It'll be worth 25-26 grand in a year and probably under 20 grand in 3. My mom's Rav4 in 99 cost her 22 grand and it's worth around 9 grand now halfway into 03

Alex

 

MCMB you bring up some interesting points. I do agree with some of them up to a point. To address your first statement. 400,000 units, let's say he rebuilds it and it costs his company half a million to rebuild it all the times it breaks down. That adds 1.25 dollars to the per unit cost.

This is a gross generalizatoin but let's say 100 components fail like this. so it costs 125 dollars more per unit to create. Yes this is a big loss in the mind's of corporate terms. But when you're making 20,000 dollars a car and have to take a 125 dollar cut, most individuals won't mind. The company would probably raise the cost of the car 125 dollars. When people are paying 20 grand for a car, I doubt they notice 125 dollars, not to mention people paying 40 grand a car.

There's no need for the company to cut employee benefits at all. That wasn't even mentioned in anybody's argument. It seems like you believe in capitalism in your argument about having to pay for the quality we get. Then is it not capitalistic and in the best interest of big business to ship our jobs to other countries where they can be done cheaper??

I don't quite understand your pilot argument as it comes out of nowhere. Also, there are some of us who are unwilling to pay this ridiculous amount for some quality. We don't pay these prices and we don't buy new cars. I don't consider 3000 to 10000 dollars a car, a buck or two. The same level of quality can be provided with less cost. I think looking at some of the links provided in this thread may give you deeper insight, not neccesarily change your point of view, but give you some idea of why ProudPony said what he did.

Alex

 

The pilot comment is because he mentioned the airline workers pricing themseves out of work. (And personally, if an airline pilot makes $100.000 a year it's fine with me. He had to do his years of training just like anybody else, and he just may have my life in his hands. I'd rather be flying with the guy who has a job he wants to keep, rather than the guy who's pissed-off because he can't make ends meet on what they pay him.) Anyway, the cost per unit of die maintenance is probably a bit higher than you are thinking. Example, a 100 ton press is making brackets. With the cost of carbide, etc. it costs $20,000 to set up the die. The press is supposed to be putting out 50,000 parts in an 8-hour shift. If said die breaks a perf, a punch, a horn, etc. it can easily be down for 3 to 4 hours. Already making a loss of up to 25,000 units. Then add in the cost of replacement for what broke, the hourly pay of the toolmaker (plus benefits), the hourly pay of the person operating the press (plus benefits), etc. and you start to see. On a 100 ton press the die can be removed using a forklift. Cost of forklift, driver's pay (and benefits), cost of overall maintenance on the forklift, etc. etc. By the time it's all done and said, the overhead for that one breakdown can be quite a bit, and these are accepted breakdowns. (Can't be avoided if you want to make a quality part). Now, of course, you CAN look at said bracket, (or fender, or brake rotor, or airbag, you get the point) and say, "it's not THAT bad. Let's just run it for a couple more hours. Save on the overhead." (ProudPony should know what I mean) Well I don't really want one of those "run it anyway" parts in my car!! I move that we can not maintain the levels of quality we expect, and at the same time cut the cost of production, and therefore the cost to the consumer. If you can show me an honest way of cutting the cost, and still keeping the quality, I would like to see it. Slamming the companies, or the unions, because they are trying to do exactly what everybody else is doing, (look out for themselves) is not the answer. Maybe the problem is that everybody wants everything, they want it right now, and they want it to be very good but very cheap, (so they can afford more of everything). Also, it IS in the interests of big business to ship our jobs to other countries where they can be done cheaper. The reason for that is because nobody wants to pay for the kind of quality that is produced in this country anymore. (And don't say the quality is just as high. I personally know of one major electronics company that is moving production to Mexico. They had a reject rate of about 10% here. They figure a reject rate of up to 50% will be expected, and acceptable, in the future, due to the savings they will realize in this move.)---(It's pretty sad when a kid fresh from college has to face the fact that due to NAFTA he can't find the job he expected within a reasonable amount of time, and just maybe not at all!!!) But anyway, I'm done on this subject now. Who want's to hear me b**ch anyway??? Besides, I thought this was some kind of 5th GEN. CAMARO board.

 

OK - first things first...
I appreciate that you took the time to post!
I also appreciate your point of view.

I'll leave your pilot example alone, even though I have disagreements with it. (Does a bus driver or a cabby have anyless control over your life than a pilot? Did you know a 737-400 can take-off, fly a plotted plan, and land - all AUTOMATICALLY? No pilot needed? This technology has been in place since the mid '80's, but airline co's thought people wouldn't get on a plane without a pilot at the helm.)What about the baggage handler making $45K, the counter clerk making $42K, the reservationist making over $40k(my sister does this for US AIRWAYS dude), the Stuardess making $40K+, and everyone else?

Another thing, if I want a car that my company makes parts for, I get to buy it for a percentage over cost - flat out. If airline workers want to take a trip on the carrier they work for - IT'S FREE! So how is it they can used the system burdened with labor and capital for free? SOMEBODY is getting to pick up the tab... yup, the paying customer.

Problem 1 with this scenario is that the rate you offered is unrealistic. 50k fenders/8 hours? Even to run the F-150 batch of 900k units/year would only take 6 working days!!!
A 100-ton press is not going to run 50k in 8 hours - that's 6250/hour or 105units/minute. BIG presses (hydraulic) can only cycle about 4-8/minute, allowing sheet feeding and unload cycle times. So backing out the $125/each in lost money is too high. I GET YOUR POINT THOUGH, and you are right, there will be break-downs and such that add cost unexpectedly, but not THAT much.
(BTW, our Bruderer 40-ton presses run at speeds of over 1200/minute stamping .015" berylium-copper (spring steel) contacts, stroke is about 1.25", a die costs between $125k and $250k, the dies have up to 22 stations in progressive design, dies weigh about 300lbs, and they run for 48-72 hours between sharpenings and maintenance! That's 3,456,000 parts on a minimum run! So dies CAN run 400k cycles easily, if designed and built well. And forming dies typically need LESS maintenance than cutting/profiling dies to boot, due to cutting edges getting dull and needing sharpening.)

All I can say here is that the part either MEETS the QC spec, or doesn't. If it doesn't, it BETTER BE FAILED. Most car makers are ISO-9000 (or higher) certified, and require their suppliers to be also. This requires the supplier to take frequency samples, and random samples or parts for QC. Some processes are even required to monitor QC for 6-sigma process. We have to remove a processed part directly from the machine every hour and do a full inspection, documenting deviations from nominal dimensions, and enter these measurements into a computer data log for SPC auditing.

If a supplier sends parts to a car company, and the quality deviation is out of the allowable standard deviation (dimension, weight, finish, whatever the desired metric for quality is) the supplier is likely to not just eat that bad batch, but lose their contract AND buy back all the previously supplied parts too if they are found out of spec. I just don't think getting a sub-standard part on your car is really a possibility - especially INTENTIONALLY. Now a bad one is going to slip through UNDETECTED from time to time, but I'd lose my job INSTANTLY if I signed-off for a process to be run out of spec.

I'm not "slamming" them. I even said so in my first post about it. But it is MY OPINION that many unionized workers have enjoyed higher pay and benefits than non-union shop workers for many decades now. I guess it's time to pay the band for all that fine music...
How is it that Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and all these other foreign companies can come into the US and build plants here, staff them with US-workers, and make cars HERE, and sell them for MUCH LESS than competitive domestic units, meet 401K goals, provide benefits as good or better than domestic companies, and still be profitable? The one biggest factor is, they are not union shops. And beleive you-me, the UAW is trying everything they can to change that!

continued...

 

continued...

Nothing wrong with wanting it done right. IMO it should be done right, or not at all. But if right can be done for $X, there is no just cause to charge $3X for doing it.

The only interest for big business to move jobs outside the US is to avoid higher labor costs and fees - i.e. the union dues, higher wages, and silly crap like job description violations for one example. (I guess you've never had a grievance filed against you by a janitor because you took a moment to sweep your area to keep it tidy and neat, huh? ) There are also the costs of healthcare, 401K matches, and profit-sharing that don't come into play when you are utilizing Chinese labor. And since there are fewer US workers to share that profit with, the CEO's and Directors get an even nicer share for themselves - how conveeenient, huh! Like it or not, there IS a reason for this "system" of labor movement - it's called GREED.

I'd be happy to pay for the quality - a FAIR price. I don't expect something for nothing, but likewise I don't expect to have to pay 3-times what it costs to do it right. I have $720-worth of Michelin 6-plys LTX's on my F-250, does that sound like I'm a cheapskate? I wanted the best, safest, most durable tires I could get to pull cars in a trailer behind me at 70mph. Cheaper ones were $400-600/set - and they were just that - cheaper.

Your employer is a decade late moving into Mexico. Labor rates are too high there now, beleive it or not. Companies are now moving lines from Mexico to Asia for better labor rates. FWIW, we too had issues with Mexican labor skills, and we refused to move our best automated equipment to Mexico, not because they couldn't RUN the machines, but they didn't have the skills to WORK on the electronics or high-precision tooling if something did go wrong.


I DO - I DO - I wanna hear you b1+ch! I openly invite any and all comments about our current state of affairs in Corporate America.

And this has EVERYTHING to do with a 5th Gen... will it be designed or built in AMERICA, or by foreigners in an American plant, or will it be built and designed in CHINA and shipped here on a boat?!?! Am I to beleive you really don't care?!?!
If we soon don't start acting like partriotic, educated buyers, letting these big greedy American Conglomorates know what we think and how we feel, there will be no America to be proud of... we'll just be another country in the world - once great but now common (or worse - broke).
Is it so hard to beleive? Look at the fall of the USSR and Russian Empire... economic conditions can be much more damaging than a war when it come to a country's power and wealth. Japanese empire of the 1930's - same deal. Germany after WWII. I can go on and on about countries that were once powerful and wealthy that lost it all and fell back into common ranks due to GREED and a population that was uneducated in the procedures/processes they were living under.
PLEASE THINK ABOUT IT.

 

Ok, We'll leave the airlines out of it. As for my numbers on presses, in my example I was using BRACKETS, not fenders. (It is what I know about, and the same principal applies.) On our 100 ton, and 150 ton Minsters we run 13 gauge steel brackets at between 80 and 120 spm. That comes out to 50,000 per shift. We run our 60 and 80 ton presses anywhere between 400 and 750spm, stamping .020 to .035 steel laminations. We can put a die out on the floor and easily have it back in tool & die in the same shift. (Granted your copper contacts are softer so your dies will last longer). We are an ISO 1400 company, and we DO have the QC problems I mentioned. (It's not supposed to be that way but it is.) While we don't make parts for cars, I would place a good bet that if you buy "quality" brand-name electronics you have some of our merchandise. (Again, the same principal applies to cars and electronics.) As to "How is it that Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and all these other foreign companies can come into the US and build plants here, staff them with US-workers, and make cars HERE, and sell them for MUCH LESS than competitive domestic units, meet 401K goals, provide benefits as good or better than domestic companies, and still be profitable?" How is it that an ethanol plant can be built for 5.5 million, and get 3 mil from local and county government, PLUS 3 mil matching funds from the state, PLUS 1.5 mil tax incentitive over the first 2 years of production, PLUS a new railroad line put in at county, state, and the railroad companies expense, which is meant only to serve this ethanol plant?? Answer--Government incentitives. (Somebody wanted it here PRETTY badly, so they pulled strings.) I suppose the same type of thing may have happened for these foreign companies. (It makes some people look real good at election time to be able to say they are the ones that got the new plant put HERE, instead of one state over, plus they might even get some kick-backs.) As far as unions go, if you are in one then maybe your job is safe when my plant completely closes down and goes to Mexico. If not, how much do you make? I can do it for 4 bucks less an hour. (With 10 solid years behind me too!) As far as the Michelins LTX's on your F-250, That's my point exactly, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. As to--"Your employer is a decade late moving into Mexico. Labor rates are too high there now, beleive it or not. Companies are now moving lines from Mexico to Asia for better labor rates. FWIW, we too had issues with Mexican labor skills, and we refused to move our best automated equipment to Mexico, not because they couldn't RUN the machines, but they didn't have the skills to WORK on the electronics or high-precision tooling if something did go wrong." ---I'm glad for that, and I agree with you 100%. It's the ONLY reason my plant is still here in any capacity. (Even though that looks like it will end this year.---Oh well, there's always all that good NAFTA-paid training. HA HA). I do think we are, if not on the same page, at least close though. It's just, the way I look at it, if people didn't expect to get everything for nothing these days we might not have some of these problems. And I don't think "If we soon don't start acting like partriotic, educated buyers, letting these big greedy American Conglomorates know what we think and how we feel, there will be no America to be proud of... we'll just be another country in the world - once great but now common (or worse - broke)." will do it. After all, who's it going to help if everybody buys the other guys product in order to let "these big greedy American Conglomorates know what we think and how we feel"? It ain't gonna help me, and it ain't gonna help you!!!! (Might help Juan and Suki though).

 

P.S. If you all REALLY want a 5th GEN Camaro, made in AMERICA, by AMERICANS, the just go out, buy a new 'vette, (or at least some OEM parts. STOP supporting the Taiwan aftermarket companies) put GM over the top in sales so far that they will realize people WANT a Chevy performance car, (not a *** car). Then when they put out the new F-body, sell the 'vette (you should get a GOOD price for it), and buy one.------It's the AMERICAN WAY!!!!!