I find it interesting and funny that one, BMW stole Pontiac's "Ultimate Driving Machine" statement, and two, BMW during the 60's sent over engineers and salespeople to pay Pontiac a visit. They wanted to learn how to become the Pontiac of Europe.

For those that don't know Pontiac used the "Ultimate Driving Machine" statement to advertise the 1967 GTO's in their print and TV ads.

 

When I hear "affordable performance" and Pontiac....I think 'youth branded' and whatever that might mean. Scion, well I guess...but they're abit light in the loafers regarding the actual "performance" part. Cars like Solstice, the Dodge Hornet I previously mentioned, the Mazda Speed3 (especially)...these would hit the mark.

As far as a GP replacement and GTO, it'll be interesting to see where that all goes. GM has gotten the point though, that there is a limited market for a $30+K Pontiac coupe.

 

I pray Pontiac does not become Scion-like...

I picture Pontiac being most like Nissan and Mazda, without question. This is why I am all for getting a G5 to go against the Sentra and Mazda 3...G6 lines up squarely with the Altima and 6, the Torrent is a good Tribute competitor (but an awful Murano one), the Solstice's natural enemy is the Miata, and the GP's main spiritual competitor has always been the Maxima.

I love the fact the most common car to either a) try to race the Grand Prix or b) is eyeing the Grand Prix is a male or female in a Maxima. Very telling, IMO...

Pontiac does not need a Bonneville replacement, IMO. The Grand Prix cannibalized the Bonneville when it was redesigned in '97. FINALLY, Pontiac had an attractive, performance oriented family car that didn't need to be big. Bonnevilles were great cars from '92-'99, but by the time the '97 GP came out, the writing was on the wall. After the iffy '00 re-design, I put tons of '92-'99 Bonneville owners in GPs, because the Bonnie didn't handle better, didn't look better, and most GP/Bonnie buyers didn't seem to have kids, so rear seat room wasn't an issue. So why pay $5k more for a Bonnie that gave no real advantage? I am fine with the Grand Prix being the sedan flagship for Pontiac, and hope it stays that way.

To me, we need 3 main Pontiacs...G5, G6, GP. ALL need to be inherently sporty, stylish, and worth the price over the Chevy competition. The G5 and G6 I will be/am proud to sell...the GP hurts though. I love it because I'm a loyal W car fan, having had a great experience with my '01. However, I immediately see the problem with it every time I sit in an '06, despite the revisions. I see the problem every time I get out of it, and look at the idiotic door molding that wrecks the sides of the car, and the rear that completely kills it. That, and no 2 door? I know 2 doors are dying, but in '02 GP coupes were STILL almost 1/4 of total GP sales.

Am I really going to be forced to spend $30k+ to get a midsize coupe, once the MC dies? That will hurt...a lot. I'd be a much bigger fan of the '04+ re-design if a coupe had been offered...this is a niche I think Pontiac could sell well. No one else has a mid-size FWD coupe besides Chevy, and that is dying. A GP coupe won't steal from a GTO at its price point...and a GXP coupe would be a great little brother to the GTO when it comes back.

Want volume? Give them something no one else has...a nice midsize, sporty coupe.

Added to those 3 core carlines, give me a Solstice, a Torrent with a real motor, and make the GTO a 2 door GP for the next re-design (and offer an entry, affordable model...make a GP coupe with a GTO option????), and I'm happy.

Pontiac CAN SELL. It has a solid image with youth. It just NEEDS PRODUCT...and I can't wait for it to get it. My muscle cars will always be Chevys, but my drivers will ALWAYS be Pontiacs, if they give me the cars I want...

Right now, unfortunately, if I had to buy a new car today? There's a ton of GM cars I LIKE, but none I LOVE enough to buy...the closest thing I could think of is an s/c GP GT coupe, if one was offered...I just can't afford a GXP.

 

Looking back about 5 years, Pontiac had several cars I would drive-

99+ Grand Am- Was slow, but looked like it could take a Mustang out
98+ Firebird- No Explaination needed
97+ Grand Prix- 20 years from now, they will be classics
97+ Sunfire- When I was younger, it looked like the Firebird's little brother
2000(?) Bonneville- This car just looked bassassed IMO...like it could take on the best the world had to offer. Too bad that is not the case.


Then Pontiac tried to get rid of cladding and go upscal in design and it failed.

Now Pontiac has exacgtly two cars I would buy-
2004+ Grand Prix- Exterior not as nice as the old one....but improved in every other way
2004+ GTO- Great car....but lacking options and costing more than a loaded Grand Prix GXP are deal killer for everyone but the most rabid RWD fans.

As for the rest-
G6= Oprah
Torrent= Equinox
Vibe= Toyota
SV6=


I need to start a bring back the cladding petition!

 

I'm glad Pontiac (and GM in general) is dragging it's feet on a RWD/AWD sedan- I'm broke for now and couldn't really afford a new car! I'd love to see a full-size (Bonneville replacement) that would have fit/finish/performance to take on the 5 series. That is a VERY tall order based on where GM is right now, but it is where Pontiac needs to be. Mazda and Nissan should be viewed as collateral damage when aiming for (and hitting) BMW. GM, take your time and get it right!!

It does seem like Pontiac is in the midst of a re-invention that will get a good head of steam after Chevy is tweaked a little more- which I think is a great thing. Chevy is the bread-and-butter of GM and is an excellent test bed for the new platforms providing real-world feedback to the MOCO on design IRT mechanical and fit/finish. I really hope this is the approach they take and hit a home-run with Pontiac as an up-scale performance division.

They have all of the ingredients in place. Look at Solstice- when tweaked a bit after the 1st model year production lesson learned, it has the potential to clobber the Z3 (forget the Miata). Why do we accept lower targets?! Aim high and you just might be stunned with the results!!

For some reason, they (all of the divisions) just always seem to get nickle-and-dimed to death in development resulting in lesser designs and quality in the end. I assume is has to do with the bean counters looking to save an additional $.000000013 per instrument cluster by going with the lowest bidder or whatever, but GM cuts their nose off despite their face in doing that (along with other manufacturers).

If Pontiac survives the morph underway at GM and focuses on quality and performance, the timing will be perfect for my family for our next purchase. I'm really pulling for Pontiac, I hope they take the right path..... IMO. Its BS that Pontiac can't be the "Ultimate Driving Machine". I'd say "screw BMW" but they don't have solid competition from the MOCO for now, I'm just glad I don't need a new car right now......

Allen

 

Just disregard & delete like mods have my previous post.

I'm disgusted. Thoroughly disgusted.

 

Oh....wait....whats that sound...? *pin drops* Oh right........it's the sound of no one caring. At least THAT 15 mins is up.


Anyhow, I think making Pontiac into a "Scion-ish" youth brand would not be a bad idea at all. Obviously you'd have to do more volume than Scion since Scion did about 150k units in '05 with a 3 car lineup. Whereas Pontiac did a little under 400k units in 2005 with a 7 or 8 car lineup if youre still counting the Bonnie, Sunfire and Gand Am. (Those last 3 vehicles did still sell significantly *in* 2005)

I guess the only real question is can Pontiac get 400k units with a 5, or maybe even 4 car, lineup? So you have the G6 line doing about....what? 150-175k once the vert is online? Then maybe 30k from the Solstice once GXP is going. Another 60k from Vibe probably? We're up to 240-265k so far with 3 car lines. I suppose the other 1 or 2 spots are filled with zeta cars?

 

To me, that's true about the CURRENT GTO, but a new one? One that doesn't look like a Cavalier on steroids? Indeed, price doesn't help, but are Hemi Charger owners complaining over paying over $30k for a Dodge? If it looked EXCITING, I think it would sell a lot better...

 

Pontiac could not be a "youth" brand in any sense of the word as applied to Scion without complete destruction of the current line.

 

So is there a dutch in the house?

 

WTF are you talking about In other words, translation?

 

ditto.

 

Maybe the answer is in Autoweek?

 

I don't think that big a change is a bad thing to be honest. Look, the ONLY car in Pontiac's lineup that currently has a NG plan in the works is the G6. That's it so far. Emphasis on the "so far" part. If they want to do some kind of brand reposition, NOW is the time.

 

I think the Saturn brand name would reach younger buyers more than Pontiac, even if you wished to give Pontiac a line of cheap boxy cas with lots of accessories.