Aeromaks

[QUOTE=centric]
and this sir is exactly why We have overpriced garbage coming out of GM....Because as you would rather have it, lets employ 20 idiots to screw in a lightbulb at a GM plant and pay them $50 an hour, plus all benefits...hey, its waste but at least we are employing americans right?

You do realize that the cold war is over and there is no more need for blind patriotism...Honda, toyota, and Nissan, along with their subsiduaries built better products, within the united states....wait, forgetting a big one...Hyundai....are building better products, for a better price than GM, with american resources....

Oh well, lets just take your suggestion...stop the bitching about GM products being over priced and inferior quality, at least they are employing more americans. I would have no problem with supporting your statements if the twice the amount of labor spent by GM resulted in a job with a with twice the quality of Nissan/Honda/Toyota in the USA.

mr00jimbo

I didn't go out one day and decide to praise Toyota; Toyota is rising because their #1 advertisement is word of mouth. I used to think people kissed their ***, then I realized what the fuss was about. I take mine over the train tracks, close the doors, start it, stop it, touch the dash, etc. you can feel somebody put THOUGHT and precision into it. This woman came into work in a newer Grand Am that was leaking oil. My mom had an Accord from 92-96 without a problem. She bought a Jeep Cherokee in 96 and she has had more problems than not. See, the problem is that GM doesn't want to try. The only surviving people are the ones who feel "patriotic" enough to buy inferior products that GM makes. Look at an Envoy, then look @ a 4runner. Compare the quality of the materials. Better yet, just compare the DESIGN. Toyota works HARDER, they put more effort. Toyota is by no means at an advantage ahead of GM, they just work their asses off to get ahead. Its not run by geniuses, it's run by hard-working people who didn't cut corners.
I'd hate for GM to go broke but it'll be their own fault. The unions are f*cked and all but they should fix it. Not my problem.

And BTW, There are *** companies who make **** cars too. E.G Mitsu (who's gonna go Bankrupt cause of it), some Nissans, Mazda, etc.

NOMAD

I barely get into posting on this type of stuff.......

But honestly.....

How is buying a car built in Canada supporting our economy ? I always brag that my car is an import. Because, technically it is.

People need to realize that ANY major auto manufacturer is not solely in the US. Toyota employs thousands of people in KY alone. The plant is literally 4 miles away from me. In the same light, i'm sure GM employs thousands of people in other countries.

Boo-F'ing-Hoo. If a car company in nigeria can build and import a superior auto at a cheaper price, i'm gonna buy it. I'm not all about spending more money to "support our economy". I support our economy by shopping at Mom-n-Pop stores and eating at hole in the wall local diners. That way I can be assured that my american dollar isn't going to some huge corporation that is NOT the back bone of america.

-Shannon

Z28Wilson

Wow. Just, wow. I honestly hope I'm not alive to see America in 50 years, if we still have an America.

muckz

You probably did not mean this to be funny, but I actually laughed. I do think that things will be quite different in 50 years. The bottom line is that things are changing, always. But recently the rate of change increased dramatically, and it is tough to predict which way things are heading.

Aeromaks

Quite actually with globalization, America is on a decline....as you globalize, the playing field becomes more level, and it is a long way down, or even to the middle, from the top. I believe the auto industry can serve as a microcosm for life in general under globalization, while in the 80's gm was king, offering and writing checks it could not afford, here we are now, gm is in trouble, and south korea making better cars.

as quickly as gm learned not to undermind imports, we will learn not to undermine the world as the far east will be industrializing...and whatever happens when South america picks up to speed, and then the middle east and Africa.....makes ya think doesnt it.?

ProudPony

Me too. Problem is, my kid will be 57 then and she will be living in the crap we are creating today. THAT bothers me.
Same for my grandkids.

Well, I'll commend you for supporting your local restauranteers.

Now, I'm gonna tear you a new one for your crappy attitude and obvious lack of knowledge about how GNP, GDP, national economics, global economics, and trade deficits can destroy a nation. You, my young and naive friend, are living on the prosperity built by your predecessors, and I doubt seriously if you have ever done anything in life yet that has made a significant benficial impact on anything to your local community, state, or America as a whole. (BTW, Nigeria and America are both pronouns and begin with capital letters - if I'm gonna educate you, I guess I may as well do it right.) If you do nothing else, at least respect what others before you have done that allow you the freedom to have your sh1++y attitude and not be flogged or emprisoned for it. And if you get the chance to travel to Nigeria, Mexico, China, Thailand, Malaysia, China, or anywhere similar and see how other people in the world are forced to live - do it, you might just learn something a book can't teach you (if you have a conscience).

If 1/2 of the people in this country thought like you and acted on it (buying cars from Nigeria ) It would be the last car you ever buy, because the unemployment in our nation would cause a depression like nothing seen since 1929. The resulting inflation would drive the price of gas, food, and essentials to unbelievable prices, and only the wealthy could afford it, so your wonderful new car would be parked anyways. However, the little Nigerians would all be sitting in their middle-class homes, some with swimming pools, with 2 or 3 of their Nigeriamobiles in their driveway, a fridge full of food and beer, talking about their rough day at work. Don't believe me? Look at Detroit's economy. Look at Pittsburg. Heck look at Hermosillo Mexico for that matter. These places are desolate, barren, and economically stagnant. The sting for Mexico is that they thought they were going to be the lucky "Nigeria" of which you speak, but China has undercut even Mexico's low wages and lack of environmental regulations, so companies are pulling out of Mexico and going to China.

I'm telling you, the average wage and lifestyle of the average Chinaman is going way up... fast... right now. It's all over the web - see for yourself. They are now buying these cars and houses that 5 years ago they could not hope to afford. The infrastructure in China can't grow as fast as their demand for homes, autos, and plants. Know where they are getting the money for those homes, cars, and such? From American, European, and Australian pockets. Keep buying their sh1+, and you will see.

Lastly - to several others - nowhere have I said any of us owe Ford, GM or DCX a free pass... NOWHERE. We do not owe them any guaranteed sales, and certainly they must earn them. We DO OWE THEM the respect and courtesy of giving them a fair shake and looking at their products when we are in the market to buy. Please, drop the rhetoric about having to buy something that doesn't suit your needs or wants because it's all that's available - that's not the argument at hand.
Like centric said so well - buy what is best for you, but do it with an open mind and eyes, and be aware of what the effects of that purchase might mean to others - THAT'S ALL.

Aeromaks

ProudPony, typical comment....your attitude is typical of most american from down south and midwest...and that is god bless us and F*ck everyone else.... By the way...imprison, not em.... =P

But you have the rights to your opinions and I have rights to mine....and that is america. But in no way do we have the right to force our opinions down anyone's throat as what some on this board have said....

As an aside, I guess in your mind we should close our borders to foreign garbage that comes into the country....because we should concern ourselves with ourselves and no one else....quick, build a fence around America and lets be like North Korea.

SCNGENNFTHGEN

My, computer was down for a while, so I haven't posted in a few days. Maybe someone hacked into it....whatever! Anyway Proud, I have to agree with you, and Z28wilson here. It's a pretty crappy future some are predicting for our country, see what we have to deal with around here! I gotta get outta jersey... one of these days! I have to say you are usually spot on with your posts. And you seem to have alot of knowlege! I don't beleive, I said anyone owes their $$$ to the big 3 either! However I do beleive they deserve a fair shake, and that is what gets me so fired up. They certainly aren't getting it! So I guess my view is that, yes we need a system of checks and balances, as someone else pointed out in another thread, but the system is far from balanced at all, and that is really my bitch! Not honda/yota/whatever selling some cars, who gives a crap! It is a free country.... buy what you want, but I just wish the press would stop lying to people about how American products suck! Its I mean I get ppl coming up to me, who don't know didly squat about cars, telling me American cars suck! The playing field is anything but level! Hopefully the Gov't will see the light, and level things up a bit! I know they were discussing it a little, though I didn't catch the outcome! I'm sure as usual they didn't get very far, kinda hard to stop, or turn such a big ship on a dime! Oh, I'll take some of those stickers!

dream '94 Z28

Has this subject earned a sticky yet?

ProudPony

Wow - again, here is one of the folks with blinders on that sees a tree in spite of the forrest.
Did I say that we should not trade with any other nations?
Please quote my previous post with this in it.
What I insist upon is trading with nations that have the same set of values, goals, and incentives that I do, meaning environmental stewardship, responsibility to the safety of the public and to the workers, strick laws that regulate trade fairly, and an enforcement system that punishes companies that violate or disregard these regulations.

There is no way we (the USA) can trade fairly with a country like Malaysia when they are using children in sweatshops to sew garments, dumping waste in the creek out back, billowing dioxides into the air, and sending injured workers home for good with their last paycheck.
Here, we have to use people of legal age, registered in the SS system, paying workers comp on top of a minimum wage, pay insurance and benefits on top of all else for permanent hires, abide by EPA and OSHA regulations, state regulations, taxation of assets, inspections, licensing, and all sorts of other regulations.
Here, we (the USA) are obviously more concerned about preserving the environment and providing safe and healthy conditions for workers and the public at large - but that comes at a price. By buying a product from someone that doesn't abide by these rules, you are in essence supporting their behavior, and encouraging more of the same. Not good IMO. Yup... IMO.
How can you possibly argue this simple point?

IMPALA64

This thread is clogging up the Future vehicle news and 5th gen discussion, lets move it to the lounge. Arguing is pointless. Nobody wins.

muckz

That's what most parents and grandparents think of their children and grandchildren. The outcome is not as bleak as most of these predictions.

For someone with a wealth of economic knowledge, you are forgetting the 10 basic principles of macroeconomics, among which is "Trade can make EVERYONE better off"

Just keep it light, don't get worked up over it.

It is pointless to provide such "what if" examples, other than to propagate your own ideas and hope to change the opinions of the masses for the sake of following you, not necessarily for everyone else's betterment.

If 1/2 the people were buying cars from Nigeria, then domestic automakers aren't doing something right, and it would mean that Nigeria is producing a superior product at comparable prices. There is a reason why people started buying japanese econoboxes in the 80's and 90's. They offered the public something that GM, Ford, and Chrysler could not.


Doomsday predictions? In the history of economics, hardly anyone can predict bad inflations/depressions. And hardly anyone can predict prosperity. For goodness' sakes, we cannot predict the weather 3 days in advance.

While it makes sense to look after one's family first, there is a point where you will help out the family next door. You eat steak every day. Your neighbour is poor and gets by on potatoes only. While you have a home with a 3-car garage, your neighbour struggles to get gravel to throw on his driveway. While you and your wife and your children have cars, your neighbour struggles to keep his moped running. And while you work an 8-hour a day job, your neighbour struggles to find a job.



And what is wrong with that? Do you know for how long their average was beyond poverty in the western world? Even at present, take the average lifestyle of a chinaman and compare it to the average lifestyle of an american. Big difference? You are making it sound like it's a sin for someone else to start rising to the top. And while we're at it, eventually it will become a more level field. If history taught us anything, it is that powers come and rise, and then either slow down and die off, or disappear overnight. Same thing for prosperity or well being of a nation/country/state. Nobody stays at the top forever. The trick is to foresee the change and adapt to it beforehand. Resisting will not accomplish anything other than make your life more miserable.

On the one hand, you're asking to have an open mind about purchases. Now you are condescending on people for buying chinese made stuff. UAW would vandalize foreign cars. UAW refused parking to the marines.

So what is your beef with everyone else then? Yes, people buy foreign automobiles because they are of inferior quality and ruin america's economy.

GM just pissed away how many billion dollars to Fiat over paperwork? That is more than GDP of many nations. So much for helping the american economy.

newby

While I do agree with you for most stuff, what car companies are so far behind us in worker health, environment, etc? This is an honest question, I've never seen anything saying Toyota, Honda, etc. has un-safe working conditions for their employees.

And when you mention US companies being more concerned about the environment, why are these same companies lagging behind in hybrid vehicles? I mean sure, hybrids aren't what they should be, but they're at least taking the first steps.

HAZ-Matt

Nigeria and America are proper nouns, and that is why they are capitalized in English. A pronoun is a word like I, you, he, she, we, they, them, it, etc. Just a quick aside.

Avoiding a long post, I would just like to state that the USA would benefit from a little more nationalism and a little less individualism.

I'm also going to echo what was said about globalization... it is a long way down from the top.

With regards to the environment, US companies are not more concerned with the environment, and I do not believe that was anyone's argument. It is however the case that the people of the United States are more concerned with the environment and have put in place legislation that limits the ability of companies operating in the US from polluting as much as they can in other nations.

Lastly, if I was running GM, when Fiat was first tried to extort all that money I would have been forced to send them a simple memo that said "GFY".