As we all know, pretty much everything bigger than an Epsilon will be going RWD in the next few years, throughout GM's various divisions. While most people on here applaud that selection, a vocal minority continue to question the validity of going RWD across the board for midsize and larger vehicles due to the theory that RWD is less than optimal in inclement weather. Many on here scoff at that, citing modern stability control programs, better tires, etc. Understandably, with this being a performance-oriented site, this stance makes sense. But in reality, a large chunk of those actually BUYING these cars are not enthusiasts on this or other boards, and these are people voting with their pocketbooks. I've often questioned the validity of people claiming that modern RWD is perfectly fine in snow...so in my own, highly unscientific way, I did my own test. I tried to make it as fair as possible by driving 2 vehicles back-to-back, over the same roads, within minutes of each other during the most recent snowstorm we had here in Western MA. With conditions yielding heavy, slushy snow of 3-4", on unplowed roads, here were the contestants...

2004 Cadillac CTS
3.2/M5, 27k on car, brand new rear tires, front tires about 1/3 worn (P225/55/16 Bridgestone Potenza G009 all seasons). Car has Stabili-Trak, and traction control.

2004 Grand Prix GTP Comp G
s/c 3800, 15k on car, all 4 tires about 1/3 worn (P225/55/17 BFG Comp TA VR4 all seasons). Car also has Stabili-Trak, and traction control.


OBSERVATIONS:

1) The traction control in the CTS kicked on significantly more, staying on for a longer period of time, despite having the ability to both lightly slip the clutch on start-up, AND start in 2nd gear to aid traction.
2) The CTS, despite having Stabili-Trak, actually kicked the tail end to the right about 45 degrees while trying to climb a hill at about 30 MPH...I was shocked, and yet not at the same time...
3) Downshifting the CTS carefully at times, when trying to slow for a stoplight, yielded an unsettling of the rear-end (granted, it did not kick out at all).
4) When I had to stop on a hill, the tires spun so much trying to get going that the car actually stalled, because the traction control was so aggressively trying to cut power it actually killed the engine...


Now, for the Grand Prix...

1) The traction control did kick in on start-ups, but wheelspin was much easier to modulate, and obviously there was no fishtailing.
2) Stopping on the same hill that killed the CTS (I ended up doing a running start and blowing a stop sign just to make it up the hill, BTW...) yielded some tire spin, but the car went right up the hill.
3) The Stabili-Trak kicked in only once, when I was making a 90 degree LH turn, and I have to admit I was shocked and impressed by how quickly it stopped the car from nearly sliding into a curb and taking a chunk out of my chrome wheel. Whereas the system was fighting in the CTS, and losing, the Grand Prix stopped sliding almost immediately.

Now, before all you FWD-haters scream foul, consider...

1) Tires were extremely comparable on these cars
2) The conditions were actually WORSE for the Grand Prix...it was snowing like crazy, and despite hopping out of the CTS and into the Grand Prix for the same loop, there was definitely more snow on the roads for the Grand Prix.
3) Both cars have comparable forms of stability control.
4) Neither car was being driven in an irrational manner. If anything, the CTS was driven slower and more deliberately, while having the advantage of clutch modulation and 2nd gear starts (I could have done this with the Tap Shift in the GP, but didn't bother).
5) Short of a closed test track, I honestly don't know how to make things more comparable.


Which brings me to my final observations, some of which I have made on here before...

1) I know I've lost 300 and Charger sales to people who are fearful of spending a ton of $$$ on a RWD car and not liking driving it on many occassions during the year...again, these are people voting with their pocketbooks against RWD...
2) As I've said before on here, it appears that stability control programs are, in reality, somewhat of a band aid for a drive system that simply doesn't work as well in inclement weather. If ALL THE TIRES CAN DO IS SPIN AND SLIDE, and they will not get traction, what can you expect? The advantage of FWD is the fact that it has the weight over the drive wheels that aids with gaining traction, which brings me to...
3) People on here have said they dislike FWD and feel like its unsafe because when the front wheels lose traction while accelerating, you lose steering ability. The solution? LET OFF THE GAS. I have never had a FWD car careen out of control if I simply let off the gas, and let the tires re-acclimate themselves to the surface...
4) Cars like the GP GXP and Impala SS appeal to many because of the fact they are truly year-round performance cars. Sure, there's a little bit of torque steer, and some all-out cornering ability is lost with the weight distribution, but these are not sports cars...they're far more often driven in a rational manner.


In closing, what would I personally do? I'd take the CTS, throw on studded snows, and go snow-bogging. However, people today are inherently lazy. They don't want the added time/hassle/expense of swapping tires twice a year. I know this to be true...I see it all the time when I try to sell someone an LX car that is concerned over the RWD setup, and doesn't want to pay for an AWD 300. If GM needs more sales from these volume products, something tells me that maybe this RWD theory isn't necessarily the best option...

For those of you who think I'm crazy to question the FWD theory, question yourself as to what is GM's ultimate goal? Selling more cars at a profit. As for the above comparison, all I can say is that I honestly went into this with the hope I was wrong about feeling all this stability control stuff being nothing more than a band aid. I hadn't driven a RWD car without snows in, well, ever, actually. My Z28 and RS have never seen snow with me behind the wheel.

I look forward to hearing the thoughts of others...all I can do is observe what I did, and feel that it was a pretty damned objective comparison. In closing, as I've said a million times...

People CAN drive RWD in snow, and not die a firey death. However, many people in the snow belt simply don't WANT to. I have to admit, while I say I'd still take the CTS with studded snows, at the same time studded snows on the GP would make it near bomb-proof...so who knows. Factor in the fact that my girlfriend refuses to own RWD for a year-round car, and I guess I'd be overriden anyways. The joys of having my own demos...


Sorry for the novel, BTW Just thought it was pertinent with respect to GM's new direction with larger cars...

 

Nice report Jason. Wish I could argue with you, but I can't, weight on the drive wheels is what makes a car move. I'm like you in that I'd put winter tires on a RWD before owning a FWD but what I really like the best is an AWD system. I believe GM will be offering AWD on some of the big sedans.

My dream car is an affordable AWD V8 convertible but we know that will never happen.

 

I would'nt drive the factory, high performance, low profile tires in winter. The harder componds and wider footprint would make for white-knuckle driving on frozen roads...atleast for me.
I would get a set of Blizzaks(w/o studs) on cheap steel rims, add 100-200lbs of play sand bags to the trunk(can't do for FWD) to aid traction.
I drove my IROC to work one winter, to prove co-workers wrong... that with the right tires and a little weight, it would go as well or better than FWD cars.
One day I drove it through 6'' of snow over hard frozen road...with very little slippage..
Blizzaks were pretty cheap as I remember, about 1/2 price of my performance tires.

 

I agree with everything you said. I had 225/50/16 Eagle RS-As on my '02 Grand Am GT Coupe...they were terrible, so I put 205/65/15 snows on steel wheels for that car. I had snows on my '01 Grand Prix GT...they also were a huge improvement.

For me, I KNOW snows will help get the job done with RWD...but what if you put the same tires on a FWD? Its night and day, even on the FWD...my Grand Am and Grand Prix went up hills I watched 4x4s get stuck on...the looks on other driver's faces were comical when I'd squirt by them up hills!

The problem is, the general public is cheap, lazy, and has better things to do than worry about tires. RWD for niche cars is fine, but mainstream? I think it could be a pretty bad idea when we're talking the kinds of volumes GM needs. I agree with poSSum...AWD + V8 = perfection, but I don't see it happening...

 

There's absolutely no doubt that RWD sucks for winter driving when trying to accelerate. When trying to turn or brake it makes little to no difference what drive wheels you have.

My RWD Lexus GS400 and RWD Toyota 4runner were both doing pretty poorly despite the vehicle stability control systems (now updated to VDIM for the newer models, supposedly drastically improved but I still question how it'd do in these conditions) on completely iced over roads here in Memphis a couple years ago.

In fact interestingly enough both the 4runner and lexus were parked in our garage with a substantial mountain of snow and ice at the lip of it that had to be cleared to get out, but a running start could be dangerous since on the other side of the driveway was a steep slope leading to the neighbor's house. My Lexus made it out without too much drama but the 4runner got stuck.

I have absolutely no doubt that my Audi (FWD) would have done much better in that situation than either vehicle.

 

That is why I put snow tires on the GTO. Drives just as nice as the FWD 96 Altima that I owned in the past did with all season tires on. Nothing short of chains is going to help much in ice though

 

No doubt that RWD isn't as good at accelerating in slippery conditions. I'm not going to wreck my car trying get the car moving. The worst that happens is I can't get moving and avoid hitting something at speed. Not too dangerous

Braking is pretty comparable.

I wouldn't agree with you on the turning issue. For the same reasons that RWD cars are better on a race course they are also much better during slippery conditions. It isn't as intuitive but you have much more control of the vehicle. I can kick the rear end out on a RWD car and bring it right back in. When a FWD car loses its traction you pretty much hang on for the ride... wherever that may take you.

FWD gives the impression of being better because they tend to be either sure footed or a total loss of control. RWD feels much more squirrelly, however experience will give much more control, even during sliding.

People buy things on "feel" instead of learning actual driving skill unfortunately. Of all the wrecks in bad weather I've seen the vast majority of them could have been avoided if people simply knew how their car handled at the limit, which isn't very far away in those conditions.

I have plenty of experience on snow and ice with RWD and FWD. With comparable tires I'd MUCH rather have RWD, but then again I'm not the norm. A 4x4 is a blast in the snow!

On ice give me the lightest car with the best tires possible because there is no traction, just inertia. This is where 4x4 SUV's can actually be more dangerous in winter. I hate driving a behemoth on ice.

Is FWD protecting people whom have no desire to learn ANY driving skill or does it give them a false sense of security and promote ditch diving?

 

Good report, Jason. The only thing I'd say is that with two different brands of tires, it makes it really tough to call it an apples-to-apples comparison. Even if they appear similar in specifications, there can be a world of difference between them. However I agree with your conclusions.

When people think of a car that's "good in the snow", they think of its ability to get moving from a standstill and climb hills. In that regard, there can be no doubting that FWD is superior. However the lesser-considered factor is the car's handling ability once under way, and in that case RWD is superior. Having the ability to control each end of the car independently is a definite advantage in some circumstances.

The one downside to RWD is that you almost certainly need snow tires, whereas with FWD you can probably get away with all-seasons. I actually drove three winters with my Z28 on RS-As, but it had TorSen which came very close to making up for the tires. In comparison, trying to drive a CTS with the same tires and open diff was a completely different story: the Z28 was a far better winter vehicle. But slap winter tires on the CTS and it suddenly became a confident winter car.

So my personal preference is RWD with snow tires. Basically, if I can't get out of my own driveway or sidestreet with such a set up, I should be staying at home. But if I can, then I prefer to have RWD's handling advantage.

 

You shouldn't downshift while coming to a stoplight. It's best to just leave it in gear and then
depress the clutch when you get down to idle speed. In dry/wet, it's more an issue of saving the clutch, but in slippery conditions, you risk losing traction on the drive wheels.


It's my guess that the largest Epsilon II cars will be bigger than today's largest Epsilons, so I don't think there will be a problem with large FWD GM cars not being available.

By the way, I've never had a problem with traction on my '02 Z28 w/o traction control. I believe there are millions like me who never drive one or more of their cars in ice/snow.

Well, actually I did spend 5 minutes in the snow with my Camaro, while cresting Tejon Pass (colloquially known as "the Grapevine"). That was enough.

 

I think there will always be room for the volume selling mid-size FWD'er, especially now that it's apparent the SUV will not find its way onto every driveway in America. I hope the Epsilon II is flexible enough so that the various brands can have one's of various sizes (give Buick and Chevy big ones, Saturn a smaller one).

That said, if you look at the demographics of this country, the areas growing the fastest are those where snow is not an issue - Florida, California, and the Southwest. Even here in Maryland, I doubt many people really think about the snow when they are purchasing their cars.

 

Snow tires on a RWD car makes a world of difference, been there done that. I just drove through similar conditions that I did perfectly fine in last year with the snow tires with all seasons. No comparison, the snow tires laughed at the snow and it was unplowed, unlike it was when I drove through with the all seasons.

 

I was in the snow belt over Christmas, and I noticed that every single BMW advertised in the paper was an AWD model. So, there's something to this.

FWD is here to stay in the just-wanna-car market because it's cheaper to build and the customers largely don't care. Cars like the Camry and Malibu aren't going RWD any time soon.

So, I don't see this becoming a big problem -- there's always going to be a lot of FWD cars on the market, and if you're in the performance segment, hopefully you will get an AWD option.

 

Downshifting with any speed is a no-no in snowy conditions, but if you ease in on the brake, get slowed a bit, then you can downshift the last gear or two.
Bad thing I notice about driving my Park Ave is, if I take off on a turn, like turning right, and it's slippery, I lose control...the car goes straight ahead. That's with the factory tires, with snow tires on the drive wheels it becomes manageable.
Whereas the RWD will usually slide its rear around the corner, catch traction and be on its way...especially with added weight in the trunk.
You can't add weight to the engine compartment tho...

AWD makes a huge difference...my wife Rendezvous takes off as if on dry ground, with factory "All Seasons" and corners with minimal wiggle.
I prefer to keep at least one AWD or 4x4 vehicle in our stable at all times, for that "just in case" winter.

My point is, people shouldn't fear RWD cars for winter, they are just as safe with some common sense and good tires.

 

The trick to driving a modern RWD car in heavy snow is to switch the traction control OFF when trying to get going, and then to go slowly and preserve momentum as best you can.

I've been driving BMWs in central Massachusetts winters for eight years now. Even without snow tires, I don't have trouble with anything but steep driveways if I keep control inputs slow and smooth and pay attention.

 

Good post Jason. Some people will never understand about fwd vs rwd in the winter. In pittsburgh, you dont have to worry so much about deep snow, but navigating on tons of slush, ice, and occasionally sliding on to much rock salt. I think performance enthusiasts..usually prefering RWD dont easily understand everyone isnt a professional driver. I wouldnt trust my mother or g/f in a rwd car with snow on the ground. traction control, posi, stability trac, studded snows, etc are all bonus features that help make rwd cars dependable in the winter, but my bonneville with traction control and a set of snows is bullit proof. Pulls right up hills that ive seen trucks and bmw's and other rwd's sliding down backwards while spinning their snow tires.(Brick road my g/f lived on)
Fwd will always be my winter vehicle in the snow belt.

That being said, I think some fwd cars are so light in the rear that it drifts. Driving my sisters 00 neon, the back end will come around going down any ice hill if the driver isnt good in that weather. I've had to counter steer it down several hills over the winter. Also, 00 Impalas, drove my parents for a whole winter and it had trouble going up some hills as well as the back end drifting on some straight ice roads. Keep in mind these cars are base model, no traction control, with all season tires.