Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

Proud,your conspiracy theory is based on nothing but coincidence.

Of course big industry people end up in the government. Other than career politicians, that's your talent pool.

Where else do you think these administrations are going to get intelligent, talented people with proven records of results? You are just drawing lines to connect dots that shouldn't be connected.

The Bush/oil stuff is so old and played out. I've yet to see a legitimate, based in reality treatment of any real profiting by anyone in the oil industry from the Bush administration's policies. Besides, the gasoline refinery business is where the real gains have been made. Look at Valero, the largest domestic refiner. Their stock has doubled in the last year. Haliburton can't hold a candle to that. And FWIW I don't buy the Clinton/Tech stuff either. And how is Condi and oil girl? Provost of Stanford AND Oil gal? LOL

To a degree you always are going to have this connection because the talented people are at the top of one or the other. There's also lots of people that come out of government and go into industry.

But, the point you make about this proposal is valid. The most powerful tool in the economy is anything that enables you and me to save money. People will always choose to save money on purchases vs. spending more. Wanting to save the whales by buying a Prius is only going to work for a few. Once you can make it economically viable to by a hybrid, people will, en masse. This proposal just blows that all to hell.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

Excellent points!

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

And the real stinker in the whole deal is that the import hybirds see significantly lower fuel economy in real life that that claimed.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Come to think of it... I've never had a GM car that didn't clock better that the mileage on the sticker. Not one. Even the SS, which has my foot stuck in the throttle body 90% of the time.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

You said it.

This is the very definition of evil in my book :mad:, They basically force people to buy higher milage cars, then tax because of the consiquences of that. I hope this new tax is tax deductable.

How much longer before people turn on the government.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

I get a kick out of how everytime something like this comes up, how the word Libreal comes up & how it takes all of about 3 seconds before someone starts decrying all taxes as evil and the destruction of mankind. :lol:

First, re-read that article. In the rabid parinoia, seems this part was completly missed:

"they may be considering a replacement for the gas tax altogether, replacing it with something called "tax by the mile."

That means, INSTEAD OF in case the point was missed.


Secondly, once again, everything has a price tag. If the government is paying for it, you are paying for it. Whether it's a couple of billion keeping roads and bridges from caving in, or spending 82 billion dollars per every 6 months maintaining order in Iraq. We are footing the bill. Period.

Finally, there's more to be concerned about than paying for miles driven instead of the fuel tax. Unless you are a treehugger who bought a Prius, or some other electric or hybrid car, it doesn't effect you. Right now, the more gas you use, the more fuel you use. The more fuel you use, the more you pay in fuel tax. It's about time Hybrids and Electric cars loose their special status & be charged for the roads they use, just like I do.

The whole response to this is pretty misguided. I never thought I'd see the day where anyone here would stand up for the Greens (as opposed to that term, "Liberals") who want everyone driving electric EV1s, and their lobbyists who pushed for tax exemptions and breaks as incentives to make people buy them. :lol:

If anyone here should be bent over this, it's me. Not only as a Californian, but as someone who puts on in excess of 30,000 miles per year on my car, and the owner of a couple of cars that aren't exactly high CAFE models.

I see the mileage idea as an equilizer. If anything, it sounds like something that came from someone fed up with special the status electric & hybrids are getting. :p

My advice, go back and read the article again without this rabid "anti-tax" paranoia that seems to be missing when business engage in questionable moves, like doubling the price of gas in just 6 months.

The only issue that even IS an issue is privacy concerns (the proposed system is visioned to communicate with your odometer). Those of you with cars that don't have computers that talk to the filling station (probally something like 10 million in Cali) means there's a whole lot of work to be done before this even makes it anywhere near the legislature.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

G-man...

Taxes = bad.

Liberals tend to tax more than conservatives.

Therefore, liberals = more bad.

Sorry to be so simplistic, but liberals pretty much earned that reputation.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

You are right, the mileage tax would supplant the fuel tax to maintain roads. HOWEVER. Do you really think the government would then go so far to repeal the fuel tax? No, that money would simply go to another program.

Taxes never go away. EVER.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

Lets rant a little Guy....

Methinks thou dost protest too much. What's with the reflexive defensiveness?

I realize this tax would be in lieu of the gas tax, but still doesn't make it right. If I have a lean year and the money doesn't come in, I have to deal with it.

When does government EVER live within its means. That's not a partisan statement anymore either. Neither party seems too concerned with spending these days.

How would this be collected? The collection mechanism for the tax tax is extremely simple...collected at point of sale. What happens when you get a bill in teh mail for your mileage tax, or you go to renew your registration and they tack on the mileage tax? You are going to have a lot of people not able to pay.

Fixed fee taxes like gas tax are regressive, i.e. they hurt low earners more than high earners. CA would be sticking it to the working man with this proposal even moreso than the current gas tax does. That's not very liberal last time I checked the definition....

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

I've been argueing with people about that for a long time and I get the following responses

- "it's still cheaper than back in (insert era with highest prices)

- "well....inflation..bla bla bla"

gas went up 100% in about 4 years. avg inflation rate is about 2%, and with economies of scale gas prices should get cheaper every year (fixed for inflation of course) OPEC and Bush's oil buddies have us all by the you know what.

correction: liberals use to tax more than conservative. The current Gov't is a tax hungry monster, I really wouldn't call them conservative. conservatives aren't all about the spend spend spend like the guys we have.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

Then there's the flip side of it:

High deficits = bad.

Conservatives run up deficits more than liberals.

Therefore conservatives = more bad.

At the end of the day, both will pick your pocket to please their own powerbase.

Bottom line is that these terms are meaningless and ridiculous.

Our Governor (as well as New York's and even ole Rudy Gulianni) are seen as a staunch conservatives in San Francisco, but in most of the south they would be seen as flaming liberals.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

I see all 3 as moderates, a group that is always overlooked by black and white thinkers.

How do you think the Governator will handle this issue, he seems like he would be on the side of the motorist. You as a Californian should have more insight than me on this.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

FDR, Kennedy and Reagan all ran up huge deficits. FDR's were BY FAR larger than either Reagan's or GB's when taken as a percentage of GDP. We survived. I'd rather see a deficit starve the beast than shell out even more in taxes than I pay now. Basically, between SS, state and fed taxes and everything else I spend a LOT of my year working for the government. I'd like to be doing less of that in the future.

I disagree that the terms are meaningless or ridiculous. I mean, let's be honest here, the Dems just made Dean their party chair. Who do they think they're fooling with the "we're not liberals" nonsense??? Dean goes any further to the left and he'll fall over.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if Kerry would have won, you'd be paying more in taxes in the following year than you will now. Sorry, the Dems are reaping what they've sown, and I see no issue with calling a spade a spade.

As I identify positively with the idea that government is too large and takes too much of my money, I'll go with the guys that tend to want less of my money - and they're conservatives.

Show me a liberal who will demand less of my earnings and I would seriously entertain voting for him/her. Until that day comes, it's pretty clear that if I want to keep more of what I earn I'll have to keep pulling for the conservatives.

BTW - I'm not pleased AT ALL with GB's spending.



PS - Dean for party chair and Hillary in '08. Good choices there... for the Republicans.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

This is total nonsense. There aren't enough hybrid and diesel cars on the highway to significantly impact total fuel consumption figures. Even if the we accept best-case-scenario for future "fuel saving technologies," the overall number of vehicles on the road will continue to increase. In short, any supposed gains in efficiency will be more than offset by total miles driven.

Mileage based taxes on "vehicle use" are tools to combat traffic congestion, pure and simple. California voters are unwilling to accept the environmental impact of new highway construction (or even increases in the number of lane. California voters are also unwilling to accept hikes in car registration fees. I suppose that leaves the alternative of mileage based fees for vehicle use - an idea that's being taken very seriously in the UK.

Is it any wonder that people are leaving California for Nevada, Utah and Arizona?

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

You're missing the point that today's "regular" vehicles get 2 to 3 times the gas milage of cars that were built 20 years ago.

Re: More proof taxes = evil
 

Honestly, yes. Alot changed out here with the recall election. Besides, I'm not looking at this from a parinoid position, I simply reading the article and basing my opinion on what's written.

Bad week at work...is it over yet? :lol:

I agree with alot of what you said. However, the thing is that gas taxes are already fixed fees, regressive or not.


My burning issue here is all the incentives going into Hybrids & Electrics. My position is let these things stand on their own & let the market decide (not what you'd expect out of me, huh? ;) ).

If someone wants to make a point to buy an electric or hybrid, then they should. But why should I use public roads and these other vehicles use public roads, yet I'm the one paying for them? Why a Hybrid or Electric sedan with just one person in it zip along the carpoll lane (another dumb idea IMHO) when someone in a Miata has to sit in traffic like everyone else?

I'm all for saving our resources, but between subsidies for these vehicles, tax breaks for these vehicles, free road usage for these vehicles, and carpool lane use for these vehicles, enough is enough already. :rolleyes:

I don't see this as a issue of politics or labels. There has to be funding for roads, everyone should pay their fair share, that's all.