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Old Mar 29, 2005 | 08:25 AM
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More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102069

From Autoweek
Robert Lutz was a little apprehensive about delivering a speech to Wall Street analysts last week.

"What an opportunity to get into serious trouble," General Motors' vice chairman told the audience at a Morgan Stanley conference in New York.

Lutz promptly did get into trouble, unleashing a tempest when he talked about phasing out one of GM's venerable car brands. It capped a stormy week in which the 73-year-old executive was the company's lightning rod.

In fact, it was a pretty tough fortnight for General Motors - one that began with a profit warning and production cuts. The company struggled to come to grips with escalating problems. Last week alone:

>>> Lutz scared dealers by calling Pontiac and Buick "damaged brands."
>>> The Zeta rear-wheel-drive North American product program was canceled.
>>> Salaried employees were offered buyout packages.
>>> GM floated a health care proposal to the UAW.

"It was a tough week for all of us at GM, and there are certainly challenging times ahead," Gary Cowger, GM North America president, admitted at another New York event.

Lutz said at the Morgan Stanley conference: "If one of GM's troubled brands, or one of the brands that has been undernourished for many years," fails to turn around, "then we'd have to take a look at a phaseout."

'Damaged brands'

In response to a separate question at the conference, Lutz called Buick and Pontiac "damaged brands that suffered from years of harvesting" with very little reinvestment.

He later added: "What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got and go where the positive momentum is. (GM Chairman Rick Wagoner is) always insisting on this. He says, 'Look, let's not squander all of our resources on trying to overcome negative momentum. Let's put the resources where we've got positive momentum, which is basically … Cadillac, Hummer and GMC and, increasingly, Saturn."

Lutz's comments in New York had phones ringing off the hook in Detroit. Dealers were up in arms about the possibility of a brand going away. GM sent out an e-mail to dealers in an effort to put them at ease.

Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president of vehicle sales, service and marketing, told Automotive News that there are no plans to kill - or any ongoing discussions about killing - any of GM's eight brands.

But he said product plans for Buick and Pontiac are being refocused as GM continues to mold its Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealerships into one distribution channel.

"We hope at some point that there is little segment overlap among the three brands," LaNeve said. "We will have some, but it should be highly differentiated."


As of Feb. 1, GM had 784 Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealerships - 22 more than at the same time last year. By contrast, GM had 198 stand-alone Buick dealerships, 110 stand-alone Pontiac stores and 245 Pontiac-GMC stores.

LaNeve says GM realizes it doesn't have to deliver an "A-to-Z portfolio" to each franchise within the Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealerships.

"We can tighten and focus them," LaNeve said. "I would rather have four or five great Pontiacs or Buicks than eight undistinguished products. That's the way we're trying to drive the business."

Bob Bakshi, a California multipoint dealer and a member of GM's national dealer council, says Buick and Pontiac have been starved for product.

"There's only so many divisions that they can get product to every year, and Pontiac and Buick didn't get that for the last couple of years," Bakshi says. "That's what (Lutz) was trying to say. He unfortunately used the word 'damaged.' I wish he used the word 'underperforming.' "

Change hurts Pontiac, Buick

The cancellation of plans to build rwd vehicles off the Zeta architecture adds more uncertainty at Pontiac and Buick. Both brands stood to inherit multiple sedan, coupe and convertible Zeta models over the next three years, according to supplier and industry sources.

The altered plans for Zeta will delay a series of launches in 2008, including a flagship sedan for Buick and performance vehicles for Pontiac.

Meanwhile, GM sources say if sales don't improve in March and April, the company could cut up to 28 percent of white-collar workers in certain departments. Some employees have until April 1 to accept buyout packages.

GM also is pressing UAW employees to accept the same health benefits as its U.S. salaried workers.

Lutz gave analysts at the Morgan Stanley conference a sign that GM plans to ask the union for help.

"Our salaried employees have one of the absolute best health care plans in the world. The UAW hourly health care plan is way richer than that," Lutz said.

"What has got to happen is we've got to get to a point where all employees - salary and hourly - have the same health care benefit. That would mean huge sums of money for us."

Cowger, who spoke at the International Motor Press Association breakfast last week in New York, said: "There are lots of reasons for our tough start to 2005: an intensely competitive market, the tough pricing environment, pull-ahead sales into the last quarter, rising interest rates, legacy costs, skyrocketing health care costs."

And none of those problems is going away. March came in like a lion for GM and was going out like one, too. In fact, the whole year is starting to look pretty ferocious.
I know this is restating/summarizing a lot of the discussion from last week. Clearly, Lutz could have chosen better words. Eliminating redundancy between these brands doesn't sound like a bad thing, though.

So what does a Pontiac/Buick/GMC lineup look like with 4-5 models each?
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 08:42 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

good for him, hope the dealers are bitching..Pontiac?? they got a GTO..and look what they did to it..5K to 10K markup....

Lutz should tell them hey sell your vehicles like Saturn and it will turn around..
GTO could be Pontiacs Vette, they tried but the dealers failed the attempt..
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 10:25 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Ok, here's what I don't get. GM basically is acknowledging the fact that Pontiac and Buick have been neglected, and yet Lutz says if either of them don't pick up sales, both will be in dager of being phased out. Well, considering most of the cars they sell aren't world class or have any distinguishable features to them, maybe that's the problem. How about actually making Pontiac an "exciting" division. Here's how I would do Pontiac:

G6- Keep as is as entry level car, with GT and GXP models w/o base model. (Having never driven one, maybe give better suspension, manual etc to make it more sporty)

G8 (Grand Prix)- Make it RWD, 3.9L v6 GT, with an LS4 GXP model. Manual offered, great suspension, coupe or sedan.

Solstice- Without it in showrooms yet, I'll say leave it as is with a coupe version in its 2nd year and more performance.

GTO- Other than styling, can probably stay as is but maybe lower MSRP.

Firebird- Without bringing up the fact that it's dead and whatnot, maybe Pontiac can have a coupe introduced to be an intermediate between Solstice and GTO.
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 10:39 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Originally Posted by Caps94ZODG
good for him, hope the dealers are bitching..Pontiac?? they got a GTO..and look what they did to it..5K to 10K markup....

Lutz should tell them hey sell your vehicles like Saturn and it will turn around..
GTO could be Pontiacs Vette, they tried but the dealers failed the attempt..
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 10:48 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Current Pontiac/Buick/GMC lineup breakdown:


CARS/MINIVANS

Compact Convertible
Pontiac Solstice, ~$20-25K

Compact Coupe
Pontiac Sunfire, $11-15K

Compact Wagon
Pontiac Vibe, $18-21K

Midsize Coupe
Pontiac GTO, $32K

Midsize Minivan
Buick Terraza, $28-34K
Pontiac Montana SV6, $25-30K (Replaces Montana)

Midsize Sedan
Buick Century, $22-26K
Buick LaCrosse, $23-28K
Pontiac G6, $21-23K (Replaces Grand Am)
Pontiac Grand Prix, $23-29K

Large Sedan
Buick Lucerne, $TBD (Replacing LeSabre)
Buick Park Avenue, $36-41K
Pontiac Bonneville, $28-36K

Large Van
GMC Safari, $23-32K
GMC Savana, $23-33K


TRUCKS/SUVS

Compact Pickup
GMC Canyon, $16-28K

Midsize SUV
Buick Rendezvous, $27-40K
Buick Rainier, $34-36K
GMC Envoy, $29-39K
Pontiac Torrent, $TBD (Replacing Aztek)

Large Pickup
GMC Sierra 1500/2500/3500, $18-42K

Large SUV
GMC Envoy XL/XUV, $30-40K
GMC Yukon/Yukon XL, $36-52K


What stays? What goes?

Last edited by jrp4uc; Mar 29, 2005 at 12:51 PM.
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 11:31 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

The Rainer & Torrent need to go. So does the Century and Montana. That would be a pretty good start.
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 12:27 PM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Well it seems like Lutz knows what is needed to recover, and eventually get this past GM..

Too many brands and too many products in each brand.. GM is likely to lose market share down to 20%.. No way in hell you can keep all brands at that number... Something has got to go.
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 12:28 PM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

What goes?

- Sunfire
- Terraza
- Century/Regal (replaced by LaCrosse)
- LeSabre/Park Avenue (replaced by LuCerne)
- Vans (you have the size/names reversed) Safari (already gone?)
- Ranier
- Rendezvous - replace with something based on the SRX
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 01:10 PM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Originally Posted by Caps94ZODG
good for him, hope the dealers are bitching..Pontiac?? they got a GTO..and look what they did to it..5K to 10K markup....

Lutz should tell them hey sell your vehicles like Saturn and it will turn around..
GTO could be Pontiacs Vette, they tried but the dealers failed the attempt..
Old Mar 29, 2005 | 08:16 PM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Ideal Pontiac Lineup IMO:

Grand Prix - Current GT2 trim and up only. GT (new base) would have thicker sways, stiffer springs, better tires than Impala LS. 6-speed autos as soon as they arte available - do it before Chevy gets theirs. If feasible with the W-bodies, make a manual optional.

G6 - GT and up. Give the 3.5 the 10 hp boost the base Impala is getting. Make five speed manual optional. Bring out the GTP, and a GXP soon after with the 3.6 rated at 275-280 hp.

Solstice - Perfect. Just bring out the performance model (rumored 253 hp 2.8, I think) sooner rather than later in order to capitlize on the cars momentum in the same way SRT-8 will rebuoy the popular 300C.

Torrent - Unsure about this one, but I think there is a place for it in Pontiac's lineup if GM did it right. Base GT would need stiffers springs, thicker sways, recalibrated electric steering. Oh yeah, and get rid of that damn 3.4L engine and add the 3.5 rated at 210hp. GXP model with 3.6l rated somewhere between 260-280.

GTO - Leave it alone until next gen can come out. Even if sales aren't great, having it in the showroom legitimizes Pontiac as a performance brand.

Eventually a Bonneville would be nice, but only on zeta or some other rwd chassis - no more stop gaps.

Models cut: Sunfire, Grand Am, Montana, Aztec, and SV6. I was on the fence about SV6, but Nissan's Quest isn't doing great. Also, seeing as how the Honda Odessey has 255hp - a figure I don't see GM beating in their CSV's - it would be hard for Pontiac to make it a performance model.

Ideal Buick IMO:

Lacrosse - CXL and up. Leather standard. Quite Tuning standard. 6-speed autos a must.

Lucerne - Same as said with Lacrosse.

Terrazza - CXL with the 3.5, Quite Tuning, independant rear, leather standard. CXS with 3.6 rated @ 240 hp and stressing quiteness.

Rendevous - CXL and up. Leather standard. 3.5 standard. CXS with 240hp, and a lower price than the current CXS, which is in SRX territory.

RWD sedan - Zeta or whatever is available. Tuned for quiteness and smooth ride. Think poor man's LS 430. Classic styling. CXL with 3.6 rated at 240 hp. CXS with Northstar rated at 300 or maybe 320.

Ideal GMC: Pretty straight forward. Trucks (duh). Nothing smaller than mid-size. Make them nicer than Chevys.

I would consider cutting everything below GTP and CXS level for Pontiac and Buick, but they are both have far too big a dealer network to be niche brands. What they both need is the image of a niche brand.

Last edited by dav305z; Mar 29, 2005 at 08:18 PM.
Old Mar 30, 2005 | 08:38 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

If there were no more Buicks, what would senior citizens drive?
Old Mar 30, 2005 | 09:00 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Originally Posted by dav305z
Torrent - Unsure about this one, but I think there is a place for it in Pontiac's lineup if GM did it right. Base GT would need stiffers springs, thicker sways, recalibrated electric steering. Oh yeah, and get rid of that damn 3.4L engine and add the 3.5 rated at 210hp. GXP model with 3.6l rated somewhere between 260-280.
This should be GMs version of the Nissan Morano. Give it a nicer than 'nox interior, standard 18" rims, and 260HP DOHC 3.6L V6


I also thing Pontiac really needs a 1 series sized RWD Kappa Sedan/coupe/wagon to replace the sunfire. This would also help spread out the Kappa cost and fill that plant to full capacity.
Old Mar 30, 2005 | 09:03 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Originally Posted by OutsiderIROC-Z
If there were no more Buicks, what would senior citizens drive?
Chevys
Old Mar 30, 2005 | 09:05 AM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Originally Posted by Z28x
This should be GMs version of the Nissan Morano. Give it a nicer than 'nox interior, standard 18" rims, and 260HP DOHC 3.6L V6


I also thing Pontiac really needs a 1 series sized RWD Kappa Sedan/coupe/wagon to replace the sunfire. This would also help spread out the Kappa cost and fill that plant to full capacity.
I agree. I also would argue that maybe the Vibe was a better platform for Pontiac. It's shorter wheelbase is sportier looking and handling (at least theoretically), and depending on supply issues the 250 hp Honda engine is much better suited to Pontiac's image.

Or since Pontiacs now sell GMC trucks as well, maybe rebadge it as a GMC?
Old Mar 30, 2005 | 04:07 PM
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Re: More on Lutz' Pontiac/Buick Comments

Interesting that product overlap is mentioned directly, yet Buick and Pontiac have near identical minivans, not to mention Saturn and Chevy.

Does GM really need FOUR minivans, even if they are virtually the same thing (frankly, that makes it even worse, because Brand Definition is skewed even further by having 4 minivans with the same headlights, taillights, heck, everything ecept grilles and badges.

I know they are "just minivans", but they were the emblem of their divisioon just like the rest of the cars in their stables.



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