Z284ever

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...eID=22672&vf=2

Commodore as big as it gets
Toby Hagon, The Age, 17/01/07




After almost three decades of bigger-is-better, the Holden Commodore has finished its growth spurt and is going on a diet.


Since arriving on the scene in 1978, Australia's best-selling car has been getting bigger and heavier.

At almost 5 metres long and 1.9 metres wide, the Commodore provides spacious seating for five and is one of the biggest volume-selling sedans in the world.

But Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney says that after its ongoing expansion, the Commodore is big enough.

"The Commodore is not going to get any bigger," says Mr Mooney. "It doesn't need to get any bigger."

Instead, the Commodore is set to lose weight, something it was criticised for gaining with the arrival of the latest VE model; the Commodore added 100 kg in one generation.

"The Commodore may get lighter," says Mr Mooney, who is acutely aware of the 10.9 L/100 km official fuel economy for the 3.6-litre V6. Real-world figures recorded by Drive put the figures at the mid-11 L/100 km mark.

Reducing a car's weight is usually an expensive exercise but can improve fuel consumption and performance.

The current VE Commodore weighs 1.7 tonnes, which is almost half a tonne more than the original VB Commodore of 1978.

While its 3.6-litre engine is more efficient than ever, it is also bigger (the entry-level VB Commodore had a 2.8-litre six-cylinder) and produces a hefty 181 per cent more power.

In almost three decades the Commodore has grown 19cm in length, 18cm in width and 10cm in height.

Mr Mooney acknowledges that uncertain fuel prices have had an impact on sales of the VE Commodore, which went on sale last August.

While the Commodore is still Australia's best-selling car, its sales are at a 16-year low.

He also hints that the current Commodore didn't need to be as big as it is.

"If you would have taken the old (VZ Commodore) footprint it was probably big enough," he says of the decision taken before he arrived as the Holden boss three years ago.

But the American Holden executive doesn't want to make the Commodore any smaller with future generations, insisting the current car is a desirable size, both for Australians and the rest of the world.

The large-car segment in which the Commodore competes is experiencing waning sales as buyers shift to smaller cars amid higher fuel prices, increased competition and reduced import tariffs. Mr Mooney insists there is still a strong market for large cars, pointing out that the Commodore is still Australia's best-selling car.

"There's still a lot of people who want to buy large cars," he says. "It's still the one advantage we (Australia) have. We can export these."

Indeed, last week General Motors confirmed an export deal to sell up to 50,000 Commodores in the US badged as the Pontiac G8.

5thgen69camaro

What are they, 5 series size now?

Z284ever

Wonder if this has any relationship to Zeta 2 developements?

SSbaby

I think Commodore is physically bigger than 5 series... but just how will VE shed weight exactly? Alloy components aren't cheap!

AnthonyHSV

Pretty much, the Statesman\Caprice are 7 series size.

SSbaby

As you can see, VE is a bigger car than 5 series. Don't forget, the BMW 7-series rides on the 5-series platform.

Z284ever

I can only guess.

But I will tell you that those at GMNA who had worked on the original Zeta programs, considered the structure needlessly heavy. Perhaps with Holdens' limited resources, it was easier to simply add mass to solve structural issues.

Just guessing here, but since Zeta 2, (the version NA will be using), is the refreshed version of Zeta - IOW the next gen version - perhaps weight has been reduced through finite element analysis or some other such computer modelling.

As far as alloy components, they are becoming cheaper and more common. I wouldn't be surpised if a 2007 economy car has more aluminum and magnesium than an exotic car had in 1992.

teal98

It's lighter than the STS, which is similar in size and engine. The Commodore really doesn't seem out of line when compared with an E-class or 5-series -- at least comparing V8 to V8. Maybe a bit heavier, but it's a bit bigger too.

I'm still waiting for lightweight cars...the aluminum Jags aren't even light in weight. With Civics pushing 3000 pounds and the smallest Dodge up to 3100 or so, cars just seem to keep getting heavier.

It seems that adding aluminum just minimizes weight gain.

And new safety regulations come along all the time. The latest Euro pedestrian regulations maybe don't add much weight, but there are no more sleek noses in cars (c.f. new Miata), and FWD cars add yet more front overhang (c.f. Peugeot 407).

That's okay, they'll just add more horsepower to compensate...

Eric Bryant

Yep - heck, even pickup trucks now have "fancy" components like tubular upper and aluminum lower control arms.

guionM

Needlessly heavy???!!!!

I'm calling the on this play.... with supporting evidence.

I've been roasting these "so-called" GMNA views for some time because either the person(s) saying this stuff has an obvious bias against Holden (been this route before), or doesn't quite know as much as they might think they do because evidence (as usual) doesn't support it. At least if anyone wants to have a vehicle that you don't have to throw away after an modest accident.


Lets take a look at the new V6 version of the Commodore Calais.
It's 192.9" long, 74.8" wide, 58.1 in height, and a 114.8 wheelbase. It weighs 3858 lbs (base Berlina model weighs 3759 lbs, so I'm not even reaching for the lightest version of the new VE line!).

V6 Cadillac STS:
Length 196.3, 72.6" wide, 57.6" tall, 116.4 wheelbase, and weighs......3858 lbs. (the CTS is actually smaller than the VE in every dimension).

Dodge Charger V6:
200" long, 74.5 wide, 58.2 height, wheelbase 120", and weighs 3727 pounds.

The new Lexus GS350:
190 length, 71.7 width, 56.1 height, 112 wheelbase, and 3704 pounds


A BMW 7 series is the same width and height as a VE, and just 5 1/2" longer, but weighs 600 pounds more at 4450 (before you ask, word is the V12 drivetrain is roughly 400 pounds heavier or so than the I6).

A BMW 6 cylinder 530i is 1 1/2 inches shorter, the same width, an inch shorter in both length and wheelbase 3500 pounds. 400 pounds lighter, but all of the front substructure and alot of the structral parts are alumunum.

The front end is nortoriously expensive to repair, even after minor collisions ( http://www.i-car.com/pdf/advantage/o...003/111003.pdf ), and infact, a relatively modest front end collision will result in such expensive damage that it's just as cheap to throw it away and have the insurence buy you another one (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc...t-115835.html).


Not sure where this so-called "GMNA" entity considered the structures needlessly heavy came from (probally don't want to know), but anytime you are going to have a rear wheel drive, independent rear suspensioned automobile, it's going to tend to be on the porky side.

Unless one wants a BMW 5 series-like alumunum front structure which will be expensive to make, prohibitive to repair, and therefore very expensive to insure compared to the VE (which was designed to be unusually inexpensive to fix, let alone more durable), the VE is as good as it's going to get.

BTW: As for the limited resources crack, the budget of $1billion made the program take nearly 6 years instead of the typical 4. Holden had 100% usage of all GMNA other resources, including any software used in engineering as well as GM's global hyperspace connections that GM Europe also uses. Any belief or view that Holden of the past 5 or 6 years is the same Holden of the 80s and pre VT 90s is probally thinks the world is flat and the stars revolve around the earth.

Z284ever

Those numbers you posted Guy, are literally meaningless. I was talking specifically about the STRUCTURE. The weights of the cars that you listed are only generally comparable with each other. They could all weigh more/less/same/different for any number of reasons



And you're not gonna know.....

guionM

I wouldn't go so far to say economy cars, but a good midsize, mid priced car most likely will.

Actually, the fact that steel has gotten far more expensive is what's helped, not so much that magnesium or alumnum has gotten cheaper.

Steel prices have climbed 150% since just 2003! Because of this, aluminum (which the rule of thumb used to be half the weight at twice the cost) today can be used just about anywhere where structural strength isn't a concern. Since aluminum is a soft metal, steel is still far better as far as load bearing sheet metal parts.

Also, steel's increased cost has narrowed the gap betwen it and magnesium (which is still very, very expensive), and isn't as much as a price shock as it was when steel was still cheap.

Gee Charlie, not so long ago you said the components (the IRS assembly) was overweight.... now it's the structure?? Someone says the VE is no more configurable than GMNA's Sigma, and I had to post pictures and diagrams to prove otherwise. Then there's the old "Holden just throws on weight and takes the short cut to engineering" claims.

Wouldn't you say that there's someone with a bit of "They-can't-do-anything-as-good-as-we-could have-if-we-didn't-have-it-shipped-elsewhere" bias at work here?

Bottom line is the final weight is what matters. Does the VE fall in line with what other IRS, RWD cars of it's size & type weigh??

Yep.

ZaphodBeeblebrox

That was my first thought when I saw this article...

Z284ever

Touchy. Touchy.

I never said Zeta was overweight because of it's IRS. In fact, I think you did.

As far as Zeta being more configurable than any other modern GM architecture, honestly, you proved nothing. Not to me anyways. Those pics you posted, in no way, shape or form, convince - or even indicate to me - that Zeta is more flexible than say Epsilon.

And I really don't get the impression anyone has the "not invented here" syndrome. I think engineers speak like engineers everywhere. They deal in dry, cold data. And generally express it as such. Just trying to put Denny's weight comments together with Zeta 2 and Zeta and some other things I've heard.

I don't quite know why you're getting so defensive about it, or are trying to tie this one comment together with previous discussions (and inaccurately, I might add).

SSbaby

The the Holden CEO (whose background is in engineering) says VE will lose weight, I believe it. Anyone care to guess how much weight VE will shed (i.e. Zeta2)?

I'm hoping around 100lbs but... have doubts.