Totally agreed here. However, I don't see a Congress controlled by any party raising gas taxes any time soon. It's far too easy to put the accountability on the automakers.

 

GM can meet CAFE. Its the 15 states that are trying to limit emissions above and beyond CAFE that GM must fight. The big three (US) are currently trying to get a $50 billion loan from the US government so they can introduce more fuel efficient cars in the US. It wouldnt look good if GM states that part of those funds will go toward a monster motor Z28 model of its new Camaro.

 

That's a load of crap the author added. The folks that make smog laws in California are not in Hollywood. The exemption is to also not hurt the smaller manufacturers of specialty vehicles as well as the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini.

You can't blame us for everything.

 

From Lutz's comments it sounds like the Z28 isn't getting an LS9. As if anyone with half a sense thought it would.

 

CAFE needs to die.

 

What makes you think that, because he says 600+ horsepower? I think he is referring to the supercharged model in general. 550 horsepower or 600 horsepower, the mileage (CAFE dent) is going to be the same.

 

Yeah, that wouldn't be corporate suicide or anything. I'm sure the general public would stand behind the domestics when they are asking for higher fuel prices.

 

If this is the logic (and I follow you on this), then explain how GM is going to sell 50-100K Camaros a year at 5 MPG below the average. This makes the Z28 a non-issue; the base model is going to be the problem, not the high-perf version. Why call attention to the high-perf versions, when they're really not the problem? Because GM is attempting to create a distraction from the real problems.

 

GM sells how many hundreds of thousands of trucks per year that get < 20mpg highway. A 600HP camaro would get what, 21-22mpg highway at a few thousand units per year?

Sorry, but GM is blaming CAFE for it's own lameness.

 

What you've said makes no sense, and I don't want the "pollution" that foreign vehicles make sold here.

GM built what people wanted (trucks and suv's.) Gas surged in price. *A lot* of people have dumped their trucks and suv's for smaller/efficient cars, which are not made by GM. So, by increasing the cost of fuel further, which would increase the want/need for even HIGHER fuel efficient cars, why the hell would GM continue to build "niche" V8 low volume vehicles???

How many cars does Toyota sell with a V-8? (excluding Lexus) How successful is Toyota? How expensive is a Lexus

GM is using CAFE as a scapegoat to quit spending money they don't have on their low volume V-8 vehicles so they can develop more efficient vehicles. *IF* GM wasn't so far behind the ball on their small car programs for the US this wouldn't even be an issue.

Edit: I see that Eric and indieaz beat me "to my point."

 

I think you're reading too much into it. Heck even the V6 Camaro is CAFE negative. The Z28 isn't dead. By the time Camaro comes out the elections will be over; gas prices will have somewhat stabilized; and all this CAFE talk will be less of an issue than it is today. The reason people aren't buying trucks and SUVs is because of the recession, and not necessarily due to poor fuel mileage. Most large size trucks and SUVs cost $40k+ out the door. For half that price you can purchase a reasonable small car that just so happens to get double the mileage of the truck/SUV. Big surprize small cars are outselling big cars. I don't know about where you are but here a few months back gas was approaching $5 per gal. Its now back under $4 per gal. If it stays this way until after November your going to begin hearing less about gas prices and more about getting the troops out of the middle east.

Just waiting until the economy turns the corner... then you'll see Camaros flying off dealer lots.

 

Well, we'll see. I personally think it's foolhearted logic to say "gee, we are already doing a CAFE negative Camaro, might as well do an even MORE inefficient one while we're at it!"

Ford and other makers are converting truck plants over to build small cars. This indicates the belief that the trend toward small cars will continue long past the November election. Ford (and increasingly, GM) are betting their very existance on this. It doesn't look like CAFE is going to go away without a sudden, surprising philosophy shift in Washington. As long as higher standards loom, there will be continued talk and worry about it.

I am not sure why everyone is enamored with a 4200 pound, 550+ HP, $40,000+ Camaro which would probably be as rare as the GT500 anyway, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

Both CAFE and a fuel tax would achieve the same outcome - lower per capita fuel consumption. One happens to make better headlines and is more likely to ensure a successful re-election campaign, the other is a condition on the market that wouldn't be well received by the general public.

The fuel tax on the other hand wouldn't necessarily penalize Chevy, for example, for building a 600hp 14 mpg Camaro. If there were a market, with $5+/gal gas, they would build it. Simple as that. It becomes much harder to sell it to the bean counters when the combined average of all your company's cars must be 35mpg, even at 2000 units per year.

Fuel tax, the choice lies with the consumer. CAFE, the gov't is essentially making it for you. Make sense?

Agreed, mostly.

 

No, those guys aren't in hollywood, but the money coming from hollywood can easily find its way to those guys. You can't tell money there wasn't some money changing hands so people who could afford the Lambo's and Ferrari's can still buy them.

This isn't happening tomorrow. The current Camaro maybe under, but a future one may not. If the choice is to make this or the Vette, I know which way they would go. To offer a car that is under, like a Camaro or a Vette, GM is going to need to sell many more Cobalts and Aveos.

Does the new CAFE standards qualify trucks differently than cars? Current CAFE has the truck average well below the car average. You can't compare the two. And the 600HP ZR1 only gets 20 highway. The same engine in a Camaro would like get about 18 highway at best.

 

When I said "what you've said makes no sense" was referring to my idea that if fuel prices were pushed even higher, purposely or not, that the business case for V-8 niche cars becomes even smaller, especially when you can't spread that cost across other product lines and GM's likelyhood of continuing V-8 programs with CAFE or a Gas tax has the same outcome... as in, not likely. THEN, because there is no other vehicles to spread the cost over, you now have V-8 camaro's in the Corvette price range (SS, not Z28) and even higher priced 'Vettes. We just have to get used to the fact that the V-8 (for now, until something radical comes along?) is a dying breed