Proud Pony and others we value your opinion and no-ones views should be silenced, good or bad...

But without you wanting it you are creating debate which causes exposure and brings this model into the spotlight, it causes hype!!! and much talk which will make this into a much anticipated model ... so good job Proud and others in bringing this New GTO into the spotlight and increasing the publics awareness, nearly every new model vehicle gets a great deal of flack at first, its the first step of acceptance !!! so carry on !!! your doing a great job.

If people sayed nothing and ignored it completely then that would be a vehicle that would fail, the GTO is going through its initiation at the moment and will come out a winner!!!

 

quote from ProudPony:

ProudPony, you have every right to post your opinions here, as does everyone. But suppose for a moment the tables were turned... suppose I went over to a Mustang site and posted how many miles I've put on my GM cars and then posted a grim future outlook for Ford like you did about GM above. What kind of reaction would you expect? You are in fact correct - you have struck a nerve. I don't hold it against you that you have a lot of Fords and enjoy them. Ford makes some great vehicles - the newest Lightning being a shining example (yes I know you don't have one (?) ). Hooray for you! And it's nice we are both muscle car fans. But one thing you will never see... me going to a Ford site and saying something like "gee Ford has had some quality problems lately... and in 10 more years, when all of Ford's products are hopelessly unreliable ...vehicles which no one will want, I'll just give you guys a whispering 'I told you so' with a wink... "

(BTW I do NOT believe that to be true, am just making an example)

That nerve you touched? (And sorry, it's nothing against you the person, nor your cars or brand preference) -- It's the one from people coming here to whine and moan about the wide variety of what's purportedly wrong with GM or GM's vehicles, without good substantiation of proof. I do not feel people must somehow ante up with a compliment for every constructive criticism they provide, nor that they must provide a huge bibliography of supporting data. This site does a lot of good when GM folks no doubt get frank feedback they need, even if just opinions. However, don't be so surprised if you are challenged when you make a blatantly anti-GM statement like the example above. You can post... and last time I checked, I can refute or differ!

Another comment about your quote... why should I go out of my way to be polite when you misquote the gist of my statements? I never said you're "gonna lose every race to an FBody". Speaking of respect and maturity... I will not twist your words, so will give you the benefit of a doubt that you were paraphrasing for the sake of making an example. Perhaps the word "stomp" was too harsh... apologies if that bothered you. Next time I will say something like "vanquish soundly in a fair competition". My point with my statement was: when you make such a wide-ranging generalization about GM brands as you did, you are likely to step on some toes, which you did. It only became clear you didn't think the Camaro has been "weakened" after I challenged it and you clarified it.

Speaking of names... the Camaro and Firebird are the hottest they have ever been (granted production is ending). Today's Grand Prix is within a couple ticks of the fastest GP's back in "the good old days" (with a few hundred bux, today's GP can soundly vanquish any previous GP, or for that matter any previous stock GTO too! OH! The Blasphemy!) And as stated in the new POCI thread on this forum, the GM design team has aggressive performance targets for the GTO to ensure the new one upholds the name with pride.

Sorry if it bothers you - but sure, I give GM my approval to use THEIR trademarks however they choose. Impala? guess what - MOST Impalas sold in the US back in the "good old days" were not hi-po SS versions, and MOST buyers were fine about it. Guess what else: MOST Impala buyers today ALSO are fine about not having an SS. Malibu: ditto. (BTW - I used to have a 350 4BBL 1970 Chevelle ) Imagine that! Former Chevelle owner, not irate about the new Malibu! I've MOVED ON.

Thanks for your concern ProudPony. I'm having fun with my cars, and enjoy them immensely, even knowing there are scads of faster/better ones in the world, and always will be. I'm sure you enjoy yours too, and for good reason.

 

You cannot effect change or improvement by simply patronising for the good things that are already done. I DO complement, and I do critisize, both. I also try to establish the cause for my POV - it's in an effort to create credibility and put weight behind the point. Personally, I like it when folks justify their position, and it occasionally persuades me to alter my position because I learned something I previously was unaware of. That's just me.

You are right, I took STOMP to mean "outperform" or "lose races". Did nobody else take it that way? And by changing the term to "soundly vanquish", you have not helped me understand that you mean it any differently. In the second paragraph above, you don't mean todays GP can beat any previous GP or GTO too? I stand behind my previous response to that.

If I "misquote the gist of any of your statements", then it is I who should appologize. But it is your responsibility to say what you mean clearly. Remember the inference to supplying a huge bibliography of supporting data thing - this is where that helps - making your point clearly. Please tell me, in a professional manner, when I make a misquotation. I am certainly man enough to admit it when I'm wrong.

BTW, I have never claimed the Camaro was not a worthy competitior. (Ref to "weakened"?) Just the opposite is true, I have commented many times that it is a great performer. Throughout their respective lives, the Camaro and the Mustang have each been on top numerous times. That's how IT SHOULD BE, it indicates progress by one or the other.

Now with this, I am with you 100%!!
THIS is what it's all about - getting our automakers to keep giving us the kind of cars that we can enjoy (and collect?) in the years to come. Cheers! (Dude, I'd buy you one right now if we were in a bar, honest! But since this is the 'net, do you take a card? )

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 15, 2002).]

 

Grand Prix? I thought the new "GTO" looks more like a Catera, or even the Saturn L series. GM corporate blandness.

The difference is that the Grand Prix evolved over time into what it is today, whereas the "GTO" came suddenly out of nowhere.

If GM had kept making the GTO all these years I'm sure it would look a lot different than the current Grand Prix.

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Red 2002 Trans Am WS6
Red 1994 Probe GT
Red 1986 Fiero 2M4
Member, Michigan Fiero Club (www.michiganfieroclub.org)

 

do cateras do 11.97@116.1mph Naturally Aspirated ?

[This message has been edited by Ude-lose (edited July 15, 2002).]

 

11.97 @ 116.1 is definitely smokin'!
And naturally aspirated to boot! Imagine a huffer on that thing! Stock? Honestly, I would have to do some mods on my bone stock car to go that fast.

BTW - I saw the words "Performance Tuning Inc." on the side of that car. Do they do home theater systems?

 

I think its a stroker , but still no Turbo, Supercharger ,or Nitrous ...not bad...

every one thinks the holden is a bit of a slug compared to other LS1s, it aint, its just the fact that you guys have had the LS1 since '97 , the aussies only got it it in '99 and are just noe starting to chatch up on the go fast tricks...



[This message has been edited by Ude-lose (edited July 16, 2002).]

 

And be a V6 front wheel drive. Or likely be the Grand Am GT.

 

I think that there should be a middle ground, or a "happy medium" to this issue. It is clear from the marking director [see poci post] that the GTO is being brought back to be the flagship for Pontiac. This being the case, the styling should be such that it is leading-edge, exciting, and SCREAMS pontiac. The vehicle should draw people into the dealerships out of intrest, excitement, and curiosity.

The current design released appears to follow current model styling, which is extremely bland & conservative. The average joe would have a hard time distinguishing this car from a grand prix at first glance...Not the type of thing to be expected from a flagship. Look at Chevrolet..The Corvette looks NOTHING like ANY other Chevy [THANK GOD!!!] but it is positioned as the flagship for that division. And it works well..

Why can't Pontiac do the same? I FULLY understand the argument that the original GTO fully integrated into the rest of the Pontiac lineup. But REMEMBER! ALL musclecars were option packages on standard grocery-getters! The marketing strategy behind the new GTO is not based on a boring 2-dr coupe with the GTO as an option. The GTO CANNOT be ordered w/anything less than FULL performance. This being the case, why not make the same philosophy shift in the styling department.

I don't suggest making a TOTAL retro car. I agree that those tend to be faddish. But, there is no reason that Pontiac cannot make a "modern" interpertation of a classic, even given the limited timeframe given for the task. One that incorporates leading-edge, futuristic styling for the division, while adding retro cues where appropriate. A number of creations from people on this site have been favorable to both sides of the camp. Those creations did not involve massive sheetmetal re-designs.

I will also say, again, that the marketing manager stated that this is NOT the final iteration of the vehicle. But IMMEDIATE FEEDBACK is necessary, IMO, to send these boys down the right path....Remember, he used feedback about the G.P. G-8 concept from the G.P. website during his speech, I'm sure he's watching GTO websites as well!

As posted in the POCI thread, the marketing director stated that "the best GTO is yet to come" so they have, in my mind, already admitted that they could have done better...Does the market really drive this rush-to-market approach? Or is Lutz pushing the timeframe?

They appear to have done an EXCELLENT job with the powertrain aspect of the car (according to their claims), I hope that they pull through with the styling aspect as well...

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'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

 

Obviously, also from the POCI post, there won't be and major or even additonal minor changes to the sketch.....no time or additional $$ available.......the best we could hope for is if this car is a success (and I HOPE it is, I really do!) then the NEXT gen. GTO will incorporate many of these ideas.....

The main reason that Ford does such a better job at packaging "special edition" Mustangs is the fact that the sales are so good the design team has funds available.......if this car sells, then $$ will allow for some more adventurous styling / performance items.

 

I like the looks of the car. I'll have to check it out when they start bringing them over. To each his own..

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hchap63@hotmail.com

01/SS, Black A4, TR224/112, ARE stage 2 heads, lid, FTRA, PMAF, PTB, Grott LT, true duals, NGK, ASP pulley, Vig 3200, LCA, poly TAB, Convo pros, ET Streets, 3300 raceweight. Little bit of juice..

Best ET: (All bolt ons) 11.496@116.42 (1.52)

Current best after Head & cam & nitrous:
10.88@124 (1.60)

Motown Muscle King of The Hill winner 6-8-02. Want some? Get some!!

RIP #3 Dirty Dale!!!

 

I also found out that the sketch was only preliminary. However the bumper covers & tail lights are the only things being changed visually over Monaro.

Pontiac is going with a standardized look for all their cars & Bob Lutz doesn't believe in additional body cladding & add-ons... look how fast he's ripping it off other Pontiacs & trucks (next year's Avalanche will have much of it's cladding optional or in an upscale package).

Take a look at Belair & Solstice's body. Those are the 1st concepts made on his watch. Yet he hated Cadillac's XLR and made Cadillac rejustify producing it though it had already been approved.