WERM

Would you want to work with this belching co-worker? Would you complain to your other co-workers? Wouldn't you prefer a co-worker who got the job done without constantly belching? What if the issue was scaring away customers to your business? Would you just tell customers they should deal with the problem because he is reliable?

Please tell me you don't work in quality control.

super83Z

So if they include wind noise, how about:

Headlight brightness
How loud til the speakers crackle
Power seat speed
Power door lock noise
Blinker speed
Gas Pedal size
Dashboard Glare on windshield
Paint
fender gaps

should all count towards reliability and definately not quality

SSbaby

We're arguing with semantics. I agree it's a quality control issue but wind noise has nothing to do with a vehicle's reliability. I've given examples on how some vehicles will have more wind noise than others where both are built to exacting tolerances.

Would you say that more expensive cars are more reliable than smaller cars purely because they have less wind noise as a result of the special features added to quell wind noise and improve general NVH?

Would you also say a pushrod V8 is less reliable than a DOHC purely because of the inherently higher NVH characteristics of the OHV engine especially at higher revs?

Need I go on?

PS If my colleague has a belching problem, it's his problem to sort out. And nobody is perfect, much like cars.

El Duce

There are some people in here who simply cannot grasp what Threxx is saying. It's one thing to agree or disagree with excessive wind noise being part of the survey, it's another though for people to not even get understand the point being made.

Threxx

Wind noise is a symptom of a defective window seal.

SSbaby

You sure about that? What if the window is frameless which doesn't have rubber seals? What about the wind passing over the exterior mirrors? That doesn't introduce any wind noise?

SSbaby

Oh I grasp what he is saying but there's a lot of subjectivity there. And the article seems to agree with me...

Now I wonder why that is so?

No they didn't!

Threxx

Even frameless windows have rubber seals that press up against them when the door is closed. Doors have wind/noise seals too.

With an exterior mirror... I suppose it could be defective or improperly installed in a way that would increase wind noise dramatically but it's pretty unlikely compared to something as soft/degradable/loosely fitted as a window seal.

If you've heard the wind noise from a defective window seal in an otherwise quiet car... you'd quickly realize how maddening it is. Even stress-elevating over long road trips.

Threxx

Because the question asked if they had premature tire replacements (tires that didn't last as long as they should have) or same thing w/ windshield wipers.

The issue is that tire mileage and wiper age depend too much on conditions and driving style to know if they really failed to meet their designed mileage, or if they were sent to an early grave by their owners.

It's pretty unlikely that an owner is causing their own window seal to fail, though as I've already acknowledged, it's possible that they might misdiagnose excessive wind noise when it's normal wind noise.

Hell it's also possible that they think their transmission is acting screwy when it's acting perfectly normal. Should they then remove all transmission related complaints short of outright failure?

JakeRobb

I asked the following question earlier in the thread; I never saw any response. Does this survey count the total number of complaints, or only the ones validated by the dealer as an actual issue?

Some people are just complainers; if, by some coincidence, such people are statistically more likely to buy one brand over another, I don't think it's fair to count that against said brand.

super83Z

So if I think my power seat makes a little too much noise does that count towards reliability too? How about Exhaust tone? noisey hood hinges?

If these are the problems people are having with cars then I can see how American cars have been labeled unreliable. People are just looking for BS things to complain about.

JakeRobb

It's not about you not liking it -- it's about it not being as designed. Hence my question above -- does a dealer have to validate the complaint before it gets counted in the survey?

Threxx

I've taken the survey and no it does not have to be dealer-validated.

I think if it did, that would create its own set of issues.

I don't think you've ever owned an under warranty luxury brand vehicle before... but just trust me when I say it's almost funny what sort of complaint you can take (for example) to a Lexus dealer, get an immediate acknowledgment, and get it corrected the same day without question or failure. The same exact complaint you could take to a Toyota dealer, and be given a funny look for even complaining about something so trivial, and if you press the issue, you are almost guarenteed to get your car back the same day with a "could not duplicate" and the problem is still there.

We're talking about stuff like a faint rattle in the headliner, a door hinge that seems slightly loose, leather piping that cracked in a high wear area, a slight transmission flare under very specific conditions, etc.

If the survey said to only include the complaint if the dealer validated it, then the luxury brands would actually fare far worse than their non luxury counterparts.

JakeRobb

I've never owned a luxury brand vehicle (unless you think Buick is a luxury brand, which I don't), and I've never owned a vehicle under warranty.

The day I own a single vehicle that meets both criteria is a long way off.

Interesting.

Plague

I think you could say the same thing about any rubber component. Conditions are very important. In Texas, it gets hot and humid sometimes. In Arizona, it gets hot and is very dry. In Seattle, it is constantly wet, and in Minnesota, it gets very cold.

Since most people do not take care of the rubber components on the car, I could see in three years where there are problems.