formula79

There is a lot of talk about how heavy cars have become here..so lets talk about what kinds of thing's in modern cars give them the weight. I not talking specifically the new Camaro..but some do apply.

For instance-

How much does a 20" rim on the new Camaro weigh compared to say the old 17" ones?

How much does an IRS weigh compared to a SRA?

How much for a 6 speed auto vs a 4 speed auto?

How much for 6-8 airbags vs. 2 in the older cars?

I guess my point is..I am willing to bet if you took the added weight of the IRS, Airbags, and rims, you would have 2-300lbs right there.

What else in modern cars adds so much weight?

AdioSS

interesting thread

Ed 2001 SS

I would guess the underlying structure for allthat stuff also wieghs quite a bit and takes up space, etc.

SSbaby

The wiring looms. If you can multiplex wires you'd be saving a lot of weight... an area where hybrids will supposedly show an advantage.

bossco

In MM&FF they stripped the harness out and used the ISIS multiplex system and saved right aorund 60 or 70 lbs on a fox car.

I dont know about an A6, but going from an M5 to M6 only adds a few pounds, definetly a good trade-off for the weight penalty. Affordable 20" wheels (as in pressure cast or some other tech that allow good strength to weight without going forged) not so good. Seems to me its roughly 7-8 pounds per inch increase in DIA, not a big gain, but its unsprung weight. The IRS is an unknown??? I've heard no more than 25 to 50 pounds over an SRA in a good case.

99SilverSS

I dunno I think this falls into part B of the Rant section;
A) Said vehicle is too large.
B) Said vehicle is too heavy.
C) Said vehicle has on odd interior style.
D) Said vehicle is all of the above with variances of dimension, weight and interior design a measured/opinionated value away from generally accepted and internet conjectured ideals of each.

Angelis83LT

Older cars? how old are we talking about here? Remove the airbags, and just use the seat belts. Remove the creature comforts. Get rid of the ABS, I bet you could remove enough to drop a whole lot of weight, without really affecting the performance of the car to much. Most of the weight is in creature comforts and "safety" devices that have been multiplying in cars at an astonishing rate. The safety ones are the best because they have not really decreased deaths or the like over the years, seems to be more of them. It can go both ways with those. completely depends on the speed of the accident heh.

onebadponcho

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Techn...t5_history.htm

I don't know which M5/M6 transmissions you would be referring to, but the difference between a Borg Warner T5 and T56 is at least 40 lbs.

guionM

I can swear we've had this thread before. I recall spending literally hours pulling up information on IRS weights, sending out and waiting on e-mails and calls, and getting feedback on this...... only to get into a heated, long running debate with someone who simply refused to believe that IRS was significantly heavier, and more expensive to do than a live axle. I also remember that I had nothing to do for an entire day, so I searched the internet and actually found the weights of items in certain cars. So we've had this thread before.

Regretfully, I saved all that information and websites on the work e-mail accounts and I didn't transfer them when I retired from there. And I really don't have the time to do my usual detailed research to post proof, links, and supporting examples as I usually do, so I'm going from memory. I'll post additional items as I find them.


First, the difference between a 6 speed and a 5 speed manual transmission is certainly A LOT more than just a few pounds. 40-50 pounds sounds about right.

IRS on a rear wheel drive vehicle adds roughly 150-200 pounds. Instead of attacking a log of an axle to the bottom of the car with 4 or 5 links, you are taking the differential, halfshafts, and knuckle and pinion assemblies and putting it inside a subframe and bolting it to the body. Since that assembly is alot heavier, the points where they attach have to be tougher... meaning heavier.

Modern mandatory A/C adds 50-70 pounds.

The almost 18 wheeler grade brake rotors and calipers on the new Camaro SS likely weigh about twice what they weighed on the 3rd gen Camaro.

The numerous electric servo motors made my Thunderbird SC's front bucket seat weigh I suppose about 60-70 pounds a piece, while the standard, non-electric seats in my Fox Mustang likely weighed about 30 pounds each.

High horsepower means increases in heat production. That means bigger cooling systems. That means not just bigger radiators and pumps that add weight. That means that water capacity goes up, and water is heavy. A gallon of water weighs 8 pounds.

As you might be begining to see, it doesn't take much nickel-and-diming before you easily reach a couple hundred pounds of weight, and we didn't even get to body structures (longer wheelbases mean more weight... think of a wood beam that has it's supports moved outward. You'll need thicker wood to get the same strength.... and even more to make it stronger. Same with steel) or safety equptment (ie: airbags, ABS, etc), or all the things that enthusiasts demand today that were completely unnecessary only a few years ago.

Z28x

20" tires are only about 1-2lbs. more than 17" according to tirerack. Lets say 5lbs. for all 4.

Bob Cosby

Closer to 50, but there hasn't been a T5 in a V8 Mustang since 1995. If you compare something just a bit more modern....say, the current Mustang's T3650 to the T56, then you'll find the difference is more along the lines of 10 lbs or so.

Reference is the same one you provided.

It might sound about right, but it is dead wrong. See above. For more reference numbers, visit www.ttcautomotive.com (they make em).

Ok. But on an SN95 Mustang, the difference was 90 lbs. That's not rough - that's very close to exact (I've swapped em on two different Mustangs).

Over what? Non-modern A/C? I've got the A/C out of my 99. There is MAYBE 20 lbs there. MAYBE. But very doubtful that it is that much. What the heck weighs that much? Certainly you can't count the ducting and wiring that would already be there for the heater/vent?

Bigger rims absolutely add tonnage, as do all the creature comforts, the air bags, the gadgets, the heated this and cooled that, etc, etc, etc.

JeremyNYR

With the rims, I think about the moment of inertia as much or more than their weight. Larger diameter rims are not only generally heavier, but that weight is located further out from the center of the wheel so it would take more energy to accellerate even if it weighed the same as a smaller diameter rim. These threads make me glad I have a 3rd gen with no cruise control, no a/c, no air bags and incredibly lightweight 16" crosslace rims :-) It'll be interesting to see what people can trim the 5th gens weight down to while still keeping the interior appearance intact.

Z28x

But would anyone want to give that stuff up? Most wouldn't, especially the airbags and 6 speed.

When you are talking about the V6 Camaro, the 2010 is the fastest, most powerful, and most fuel efficient V6 Camaro ever. Weight is not an issue to those buyers when the car performs like that. Do you even think 1 out of 100 people can tell you what their car weights?

Z284ever

So a Z06 with a live axle would weigh 2,900 pounds?

No.

There may be some car, somewhere which gained that. That certainly is not the rule though.

Ideally, when starting from a clean sheet car architecture, a well engineered IRS adds 25-50 pounds over a well engineered live axle. According to the Camaro's VLE, the Camaro's IRS added 80 pounds.

Doug Harden

I know everything looks like a monster truck from the seat of my Corvette........but this is what I saw out my office window a few days ago...



and from the front seat of the C5....




Not bashing the F5, but ALL cars look frickin' HUGE these days...even Cobalts, etc....


WHY, is my question?!?!