I am no expert but you also need a higher flowing fuel pump, different injectors, forged internals, a new computer, and I am sure a few other things.

 

hmmmm. If it was a parallel system like the Accord, I'd be very interested. I think any system that shuts the engine off at slow speeds or at stops would be a hard sell on a V8 model becuase the V8 rumble is a large part of the product.

Perhaps a shut off feature hybrid on the V6 cars and the parallel system on the performance models?

I'm a firm believer in having your cake and eating as much of it as you can.

 

No danger of me driving across town, you heathen...

Anyhoo, I have been doing a lot of research lately on hybrids and have realized that a hybrid fueling system is a good idea for a Camaro.

Mine squirts an innovative gasoline/nitrous oxide mixture. Seems to work like a charm at WOT, not so good at part throttle... lag doesn't seem to be a problem.

I promise to keep working on this and will report back occasionally.

 

It is innevitable one day that unless some all new wonder power source comes along (e.g. a compact, 'clean' nuclear fusion reactor with few long half-life byproducts that can be processed safely) that sidesteps the limited hydrocarbon based fuel supply, consumption and pollution issues, all new mass produced cars will be hybrids. Either because consumers demand them en masse (very unlikely) or the Govt. intervenes and forces the issue. It might not happen for another 20 to 30 years, but it's comming, like it or not.

Personally, I don't see anything sacreligious about a hybrid Camaro that looks and sounds like a Camaro but uses electric motors in addition to a potent, clean burning V8 ICE with direct inject and cylinder deactivation to provide satifyingly huge of amounts of HP and torque, esp. when accelerating. Echoing someone else who also posted.. I want a whole cake (slathered with with full fat frosting), and I want to eat it without getting a huge a$$ . I can't see how this a bad thing.

 

...but those items are already on the car...you are replacing them with "better" ones, so yes there is an incremental cost. However, your car does not have a battery pack, high voltage cables, electric motors, and the computers to manage a hybrid system. These are ADDED components. Nothing is removed when you add them. Thus, the cost is much higher.

Yes, there is a market for hybrids, but I'm just not conviced that people will go for a "musclecar" hybrid. At least not yet, anyways.

 

Hybrid shmybrid.

Give me a deisel anyday over a hybrid for ultimate fuel economy. Plus the technology already has been perfected, is affordable, and is profitable already.

Volkswagen figured this out and they aren't wasting their time or resources on the hybrid "fad". Hybrids will peak in the market around 4-5% of sales in the next 5 years. Those aren't my works, that's the outlook of auto industry analysts that were discussing hybrids on the radio the other day as part of a news blurb about the NAIAS.

So if a hybird Camaro would be OK then why not a deisel?

Hybrid is NOT just an assist mechanism, its a completely alternative drive system. THe gas engine is decoupled from the drive line. Electric becomes the powertrain and the gas engine is the assist device for high load and highway situations. Its called a hybrid because it really is a hybrid. Part gas engined and part electric car.

 

That's not quite true... sometimes you end up with your scenario or close to it (Escape, Prius) and sometimes the methodology is an "undersized" gas engine coupled with a small electric "assist" motor for when extra HP is needed (Accord, Civic).

I'm with you on the diesels though. I'd take one over a hybrid anyday. If someone other than VW made one with a manual for a decent price, I'd buy it.

 

Sorry, but Volkswagen isn't your savior

Hybrid technology isn't a 'fad' by any means. It may be a linkage from oil to hydrogen use, but to call it a fad is quite short minded.

In order for the human race to save oil, we have to stop using it on a mass level. Sorry if you hate change, but that means changing the way we power our vehicles. 100% Biodeisel might be the only kind of diesel you'll be driving around in 15 years. And even that might be coupled with an electric motor

I don't see why people are so scared of things like hydrogen and hybrids and yet at the same time know that oil won't last forever Are you waiting for anti-matter power sources or something?

 

Um...I would say that EPA validation and additional crash testing for the new model would be the highest cost incurred. Plus the engine development program, etc etc. You're right, the hard parts are next to nothing, but the R&D to make it run right, and above all, make it legal, are huge.

 

I appreciate you putting so many words in my mouth. Try stepping down off the cross you just nailed yourself too and having a discussion about the debate at hand. No where did I say we should just blindly go along consuming oil until we are all screwed.

BTW, FYI Saudi Arabia announced last week it expects to double its known reserves in the next 2 years. They already have the largest reserves of any nation.

I'm not scared of hybrids, if desiels did not exist I would be more impressed, but right now deisels are acheiving superior fuel economy with existing, proven and CHEAPER technology. Why reinvent the wheel? When it comes down to the bottom line, hybrids still use fuel refined from oil, and on average they use a little more of it than deisels do.

I don't understand why some people think the hybrid is some kind of great savior to the planet when the record doesn't bear that out. I'd wager when you add up all the added fuel energy that is put into the process of producing a hybrid with all its extra equipment and such that its total lifecycle energy consumption is far greater than a deisel and probably not far off from a gas engine Civic or other ULEV cars.

 

>I'd wager when you add up all the added fuel energy that is put into the >process of producing a hybrid with all its extra equipment and such that its >total lifecycle energy consumption is far greater than a deisel and probably >not far off from a gas engine Civic or other ULEV cars.

That is such a weak argument, aside from the fact you have no research to back it up.

Diesels are not exactly clean burning. You've sat behind a modern diesel car like a VW Jetta diesel I'm sure. I have and you'd better close the air-vents cuz, those diesel exhaust fumes are worse than modern petrolium ICE fumes... in particular the sooty crap that goes with all diesel engines and comes out the tail pipe and into your lungs where it get's lodged. Sure diesel engines can trap some of these exhaust particles in a filter but you can't get 'em all.

But this doesn't mean diesel's can't be improved and refined further... so I'm not dismissing them. But to diss hybrids as worthless like you do above (your 'wager') is pretty short sighted. They've only come into mainstream use in the last 2-3 years since the Honda and Toyta cars first appeared. And my own experience from driving a Hybrid Civic for 2 weeks was that my fuel consumption was clearly halved.

 

I could see it as an enhanced V6 package in a luxury model (which probably wouldn't wear a Bowtie anyway) but not as part of the top dog V8 performance edition.

I'd consider a hybrid convertible as a daily driver.

 

Who said I have to back it up? It was just speculation and I don't think I suggested otherwise. But its still an interesting discussion and it is VERY relevant. What do you think "I'd wager" means?

But that's exactly the issue that killed the electric car. Besides the fact that the range sucked and the battery technology was absurdly expensive, the fact is the energy you expend while driving has to come from somewhere. With an electric car you are just shifting the energy production from your gas tank to the electric power plant.

Same reason ethanol isn't a viable alternative. It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get out of a gallon of ethanol when you add up the fuel in the tractors, the energy spent producing the tractors and other equipment, the refining process, etc.

I get tired of everybody trying to be the guy that "owned" somebody else in this forum.

 

WTF?? When did I put words into your mouth? I'm not trying to act holier than anyone here, I'm just stating my opinions.

If your big alternative to hybrids is diesel, then what exactly do you propose we do when we run out of oil? Hope that the unresearched and under developed hybrid technology of decades before can power all our vehicles? Hope that our non existent hydrogen economy can propell us to work?

What part of your *** did you pull this statement from? Cheaper and proven technology, sure, but superior fuel economy?! Please, its not even close. Hell, mild hybrids are beating out similarly powered/classed diesel vehicles. Not to mention what the full-hybrids are doing

Why reinvent the wheel? Because we have to. Oil won't last forever, and if it does its still not very clean burning and will result in some environmental impacts.

What is your savior to the planet? Diesels? The most polluting form of fuel currently used in mass production vehicles?

I'll be first to admit that current hybrids are in no way the savior to the planet. Its the research that commercial businesses are doing on them that is. If we continue to do the same research on diesels, its going to hit a wall. We're not going to see 200 MPG diesel family sedans any time soon. There's only so much you can do with ICE technology before you realize that its even more economically unfeasable to make it as efficient as what hybrids could be. Considering electric motor research can lead us to cars that can run on electricity alone with no polutants whatsoever, I'd think the better route to go would be with hybrid technology. With Nimh technology starting to roll forward, 200 MPG hybrid sedans could be right around the corner, mixed in with electric only small cars going 400+ miles on a single charge. Yes, please
Your opinion isn't very credible if you have nothing to back it up...

 

Perhaps, but you have to use real world mileage, not the EPA ratings. While a Diesel car can get approximately the EPA mileage, many of the hybrids do not, because the test is not really suited well to them. The EPA has admitted this, and Toyota has said that they would rate the Prius lower in order to have higher customer satisfaction but they legally can't. Real world mileage for prius owners is often far lower than the EPA ratings. I'm not at home, so I don't have the magazines in front of me, but I know that Car and Driver had a Prius and their long term average mileage was virtually equal (perhaps even less) than the VW Diesel they also tested. I also read another review where another long term test resulted in the Corolla averaging only 5mpg less than the Prius.

Hybrids are still in early development, and they are not for everyone. If you do a lot of stop and go, you'd be better off in a hybrid. If you get out onto the highway a lot, you'd be better off in a diesel.

Oh, and whoever said this: A general rule of thumb is that whatever is the least expensive option usually has the smallest impact in terms of resource consumption. Luxury goods will consume more than non luxury goods and even the most "More Efficient" products often use more resources/energy in their construction than they will save over their lifetimes.