I'd say, after working with several engineers for a couple of years, your wrong.
They highly consider the price, seeking out the best materials that will meet their criteria in both performance and cost. The problem is, beancounters sometimes think they can "save" the company even more money, as if it's their job to "save" the company. And even lower the standards that need to be met per engineering, in performance and/or endurance.
While I do believe both are needed, their needs to be a heavier weight on performance, NOW, as in endurance etc, more than ever. There needs to be a strong cooperation and communication between the two. Cost cannot be the ONLY consideration.

 

Not to discount your experience, but working with a few engineers over a coupel of years is not necessairly representative of the whole.

And, performance being the primary goal wold work only in a world where the majority of buyers go and buy because of performance...they dont.

The value of the Corvette to Chevrolet, has little to do with the relatively small amount of profit involved (from GM's prespective) Oh I'll admit, the guy may drool over the Corvette but he buys the Impalla or mini-van; at least until such time as he can afford both.

You are right, cost cannot be the only consideration but it is just as important as engineering perfection.

 

It isn't the responsibility of the financial analyst to decide to do the beam axle...that's the job of management...my point is, no one speciality is more important than another; it's up to the management of the company to make sure they all work together for the good of the company.

 

...but a blanket statement saying that they don't understand financial responsibilites is?

 

Now I know beyond any shadow of doubt that you are not an engineer, who has gone through any ABET-accredited engineering program and earned a degree.

ALL engineers are required to take a series of engineering economics courses that are geared towards bringing financial responsibility into design. My program required 2 specific courses on top of the 2 regular courses required for general college. You learn everything from line-item cost accounting methods, to amortization and depreciation schedule calculations.

Back to the meaning of my comment, I have seen too many times in my career, an engineer develops a great design that will do the job well and last a long time, only to have a bean-counter come along and ask if there is another material, another way to build, etc that will reduce cost. I have also seen bean-counters kill a design that has curb appeal and go with a more conservative design that costs less but looks like turd. Engineers and designers typically put function, fit, and form first (to coin a term), whereas the bean-counters put total costs and profits first.

I am not saying there is no use for accountants at all. I AM saying that they should not be allowed to have such authoritative decisionmaking power so as to decide what designs go through and what designs are nixxed based on cost alone. Throughout history, we have had companies started by engineers and creative minds that became wildly successful, only to go to pot when beancounters took over (typically after the founding engineer died). Research General Electric, Edison Electric, Duke Power, AMP Inc, PPG Industries, Texas Instruments, Apple Computer, Microsoft, IBM, and oodles of others to see what can happen when an engineer makes their own decisions about where to invest his/her money in their company. NONE of those were started by a bean-counter... and for good reason too.

Here's my thought about financial advisors...
To me, they are nothing but exotic leeches. They are able to produce NOTHING for themselves, and must resort to studying other people's work and motives to have a saleable entity (which is "data"). They are only able to make money by convincing other people (with money) that they know something, and it will cost them to get at it. SOME talent.

Lastly, there were engineers and designers in this world LONG before any financial analysts or accountants. Thank Heavens. If there had been an accountant looming over the guy that invented the wheel, we'd only have the wood axle because it costs too much money and time to chisel the wheel itself from stone

 

its comes down to foreign vs. domestic double standards.

 

I am not an engineer nor have I ever claimed to be so I’m not sure why you say that as if it’s a revelation.

By the way...I think enough about engineers to use the term "engineer"...perhaps you could stop using derogatory terms for accountants/financial professionals such as "bean counters"??? Of course, given your now very evident hostility toward financial professionals I'm surprised you stop at just calling them bean counters.

My original statement was perhaps too broad but taking a couple of accounting courses while in an engineering program does not give an engineering student a true appreciation for financial analysis any more than taking the Richard Petty Driving Experience makes one a NASCAR driver.

True, most companies are not started by accountants but then again, "engineering" is not the real issue there anyway; I would suggest that entrepreneurship is. However, no company will survive the long term if it ignores the financial side of the equation…that’s something an engineer should be able to appreciate…successful business IS an equation of many elements that must be balanced and work together as a whole. Any one of them allowed to overpower the others will doom a company.

It IS part of the accountant’s job to ask if there is another material or another way to produce the product that would cost less and provide more profit…and as I’ve already said, which some seem to be conveniently ignoring, it is the managers and directors and the vice-presidents and CEO’s jobs do decide which direction the company takes (or what material is used or what production process is chosen). An engineer shouldn’t fear the questions.

Your statement that “…there were engineers and designers in this world LONG before any financial analysts or accountants…” seems far more fanciful than factual nor does archeological research support it. In fact, it has shown us that financial records/financial concerns existed even in the earliest days civilization.

 

Good point...obviously, broad, sweeping statements are always dangerous to make and of course, therw are almost always exceptions.

 

Do you think you could elaborate just a bit more???

 

No. Red made a post about it a while back.
Mostly showing that foreign automakers don't get taxed as much, and get more benefits.

 

I don't think Ford's going anywhere. I failed to mention that Ford's plan is to focus on the bottom line, and despite a loss in sales and market position, they are in better financial shape than they have been in awhile. But at the same time, Ford has gone far more conservative than they have since I can remember, and they risk becoming what AMC was in the early 70s. Profitable and safe, but without any intrestingly designed vehicles to keep momemtum going.

I stronly suspect I'm wrong in some ways, because J. Mays seems to be ready to take more chances with exterior design than the F-series, large SUVs, Five Hundred, and Fusion bodies seemed to show. And it also is starting to look like I may have been a little premature in bashing Lincoln in discontinuing the superb LS when I felt a redesign would do.

But Ford used to have the ability to have cars materialize out of nowhere, and end up better thought out than Chrysler did. I see why Ford's no longer doing this (screamish about having a botched introduction) but Ford needs to get their old snap back IMO.

 

That half-truth, propped up by innuendo, is mostly a fabrication of the UAW as a way to ensure the continued existence of the union and to avoid addressing the real problems facing the domestic nameplates. But thanks for clearing up where you are coming from.

 

/signed - took the words out of my mouth!

 

I never said you did claim to be an engineer. I simply stated that it was obviouse to me (after your comment) that you were NOT an engineer, and you know nothing about what it takes to earn such a degree. Simple observation - nothing more. If I offended you, I apologize. Obviously, you must hold engineering in high regard, and perhaps you aspire to become one someday.

So let's call it a draw... I'll stop at bean-counters and not get any worse than that!
You can call engineers whatever you like... doesn't break any of my bones.

Seriously, I wouldn't say I have "hostility" towards them, but I do have major problems with the level of authority they carry in business these days. I have been in industry for over 20 years now, and I have yet to meet any "accountant" that brought value or tangible benefit out of the office and onto a manufacturing floor. They can watch the books, but do not belong in a decision-making role when it comes to manufacturing. They can - and should - be on the team, but NOT calling the plays IMO.

OK - likewise, for an accountant to take a course in physics does NOT make him/her qualified to propose material changes to a part to save money, or to tell a designer that any given design is not optimal.
So we're back to your first statement and my first rebuttal... "accountants" need to cook books, make payrolls, and divy out profitsharing, and let the properly-trained engineers and designers produce goods.

Most companies are not started by accountants FOR A REASON!!! They have nothing to sell!!!
To insinuate that an engineer would "ignore" the financial side of a company is ludicrous. The point to entrepreneurship is to bring something marketable to the people and sell it to them for profit... be it making power, making shoes, or making dinner. The recent development of paying advisors 2-5% of your gains because they "know" where to put your money is goofy to me. And to let them run your business based on financials and predictions alone is downright absurd.

I think engineers have FAR more appreciation for the finances in a given project that the typical accountant has for the engineering-side. Go blow smoke on the accountants to take 16-20 hours of core engineering courses, then come back and talk to me.

NO, it is not OK to ask if there is another material or way to produce!!! THAT statement alone stereotypes the attitude of the modern bean-counter!!! They are encroaching into areas where they are not qualified to make assertions. Simply asking the question is both insulting to the engineer who did his job correctly, and wasteful to all parties because of the trivialities it brings forth. It's like me asking a brain surgeon if there is another way into the brain besides cutting the skull.
You let me do my job, and you go do yours. Frankly, I don't have the time to do my job, AND have explain every little aspect of it to some ding-dong sitting behind a boardroom table.

Ummm... no. I don't buy it. Bring me some evidence, or let this one go.
Personally, I'm quite sure that cave men were MORE concerned about making tools to survive than how many gold shillings they had stashed in a cave somewhere.

Whats even more distressful than this casual debate about the role of beancounters in modern business, is the fact that they don't see themselves as doing anything wrong in any way.

Did engineers get Enron in trouble, or beancounters?
(HINT - "Former Enron finance chief Andrew Fastow and his wife have agreed to plead guilty for their roles in a massive accounting scandal that brought down the energy giant in 2001." LINKY)
Were engineers imprisoned over Tyco International's fraud, or beancounters?
(HINT - "TYCO CEO Kozlowski gets up to 25 years and Mark Swartz, former Tyco CFO, also gets 8-1/3 to 25 for his part in stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the manufacturing conglomerate." LINKY)
Did engineers creat the fiasco at AOL/Time/Warner, or beancounters?
(Hint - "Steve Case is not ashamed of taking the fall for the merger of America Online and Time Warner, perhaps one of the greatest failed deals in corporate history." LINKY )
Did engineers run Arthur-Anderson accounting firm into the ground, or beancounters?
(HINT - "Andersen Guilty - Once grand accounting firm now faces five years probation, $500,000 fine and possibly its own end." LINKY )

Why don't you show me some good multi-million dollar scams and scandals that were masterminded by ENGINEERS?
You know, typically it is the engineer that has the conscience, wanting to do right at any cost, and ends up being the whistle-blower. Remember the Challenger shuttle - it was an engineer who said "don't go" and a program manager who said "go anyway, our budget is tight". More recently, engineers said the armored vests made with Zylon would degrade if exposed to UV and moisture, but front office execs at Second Chance Body Armor, Inc decided to go ahead and sell them to LEAs and the government anyways.
It's really not hard to find engineers wanting to do a good job.
It's also not hard to find corruption in business that involves beancounters.
Go figure. :blah:


I digress. I don't have time to waste explaining this further... I have to figure out a way to produce my products cheaper so I can afford to pay all the MBA's and MSBA's that are running my board of directors who, by the way, want to ship MY job to India where they can get it done for LESS MONEY. (Again, it's not the big-wig money-mongers at the top who are the problem, it's the expensive engineer that enables them to make a product but gets paid oh, maybe 20-30% of what they do annually. )

Thanks for the discussion!

 

ProudPony,

It's very easy to make an argument when you ignore obvious intent or twist words. However, there really isn’t any point in engaging in a long, drawn-out discussion with you because in the overall scheme of things, I don’t really care.

I also don’t care that you find it insulting if a “bean counter” asks you questions…that IS his/her job whether you like it or not and it is a company’s management that has the responsibility for making the decisions. I didn’t and never will say an accountant should pretend to be an engineer and start doing design work…what I said is that they should ask the questions - again, it’s the company’s management that has to decide what course to take. If you happen to work for a company where there are poor decision makers in place and you are that angry about it then go somewhere else…Wal-Mart and McDonalds are likely hiring.

You have convinced me of one thing - I now know that no engineer has ever been arrested for anything, let alone found guilty; they are the epitome of moral conscience and obviously, all criminals are accountants - thanks for clearing that up!