Join the "Import Apologists and Liars Club"
02-13-2010, 01:54 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 161
Join the "Import Apologists and Liars Club"
Join the "Import Apologists and Liars Club" today! With your membership, we'll show you to write such dandies as:
"Both my last Ford and Chevy had nothing but electrical problems....constantly needing fixing... and when it was time to trade them in... the trade in value was nothing. The vehicles were not that old and their scrap value was higher than what you get get on trade."*
"My 95 Corolla just went over 1,235,452 miles. I had nothing but problems with domestic cars. Now I just get in and turn the key."*
Only $29.95 for a one-year membership! Call today! 1-800-555-CRAP
* Actual quotes found on Internet comment boards.
"Both my last Ford and Chevy had nothing but electrical problems....constantly needing fixing... and when it was time to trade them in... the trade in value was nothing. The vehicles were not that old and their scrap value was higher than what you get get on trade."*
"My 95 Corolla just went over 1,235,452 miles. I had nothing but problems with domestic cars. Now I just get in and turn the key."*
Only $29.95 for a one-year membership! Call today! 1-800-555-CRAP
* Actual quotes found on Internet comment boards.
02-15-2010, 01:58 AM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
If you haven't noticed by now, alot of people on internet boards range from people who simply want to fall into the herd and out do someone to those who are simply self adsorbed mental retards.
I've weened myself off the internet, and now only post things periodically (and yes... that includes here on this site) because I've gotten tired of getting into pointless debates and arguments with people who simply don't have the simple ability to take a moment and think, let alone look at what's in front of them and come to a logical conclusion or at the very least come up with itema and points to support whatever it is they are trying to convince people of.
What you point out is simply a different version of something that infests every internet site I can think of. People who come up with really assinine claims, people who simply post just because they can, and people who simply need an audience because everything else is lacking in their life.
Try an experiment. Take a couple of weeks or more away from sites like those sites you mentioned above (and yes... I include this site as well). For your automotive news, check out the conventional press sites like Automotive News, Detroit News, or Detroit Free Press, or one of the car rag websites. Stay away from the forums. Then go back to enthusiasts websites, and various automotive forums. I guarantee you, your opinion of them will drop quite a few notches. After some time reading somewhat factual and generally opinion neutral news for some time, going back to forums is an excercise in phenominal patience. You will actually see how ridiculous things are as a whole.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
Sure, there's a group that belongs in the "Import Apologists and Liars Club".
There's also a very pronounced group very well fitted to the "Camaro's Apologists and Liars Club", let alone a "GM Liars and Apologists Club".
Flick over to a Mustang site and you'll see a group within that site that could very well form a "Mustang Apologists and Liars Club"
A person who comes up with ridiculous stories that favor Toyota is no worse than the person who swore he'd never buy another GM product because GM stopped making Pontiac.... never mind the fact that those very same Pontiacs not only come down the same assembly lines as Chevrolets, but often the same car as Chevrolets under the skin... let alone all the money made selling the car going to the same company. Taking issue with a GM car being a Pontiac or Chevrolet is as ridiculous as saying you won't buy a car with one shade of dark blue because it doesn't have another... it's the same vehicle making money for the same company.
The person bragging about the number of miles they got on their Toyota probably changed that nylon timing belt that lasts 120K miles (versus a GM, Ford, or Chrysler timing chain that lasts the life of the car. That person never went to a Tropical island and saw how those Toyotas turn to crap far quicker in salt water air than US made cars. To be sure, yes, US cars went through a period where their assembly and materials were crap. There are a few models around today whose interior materials are substandard compared to today's norm in the car market (2010 Camaro, anybody?). But Toyota isn't flawless as we've seen recently. In fact Toyota's turned out to be a pretty cynical, and devious car company as people are slowly starting to discover.
Sure, if you go to certain websites, Toyota can do no wrong. But if one doesn't like what he or she reads at a particular website, then simply don't go there.
If one actually starts feeling pretty outraged at some belief that someone put on the internet because they look at it as true with the general population, you really need to get off the internet more.
Internet forums are not reality.
They are a very narrow group of people, normally sharing a belief or enthusiasm about whatever that site is about.
And yes, there are people in all these sites (including this one) who frequently "apologise", "lie", "exaggerate", or simply gloss over the facts and cherry pick the good.
That's intenet forums.
And that's why you take it all with a grain of salt......... if that.
I've weened myself off the internet, and now only post things periodically (and yes... that includes here on this site) because I've gotten tired of getting into pointless debates and arguments with people who simply don't have the simple ability to take a moment and think, let alone look at what's in front of them and come to a logical conclusion or at the very least come up with itema and points to support whatever it is they are trying to convince people of.
What you point out is simply a different version of something that infests every internet site I can think of. People who come up with really assinine claims, people who simply post just because they can, and people who simply need an audience because everything else is lacking in their life.
Try an experiment. Take a couple of weeks or more away from sites like those sites you mentioned above (and yes... I include this site as well). For your automotive news, check out the conventional press sites like Automotive News, Detroit News, or Detroit Free Press, or one of the car rag websites. Stay away from the forums. Then go back to enthusiasts websites, and various automotive forums. I guarantee you, your opinion of them will drop quite a few notches. After some time reading somewhat factual and generally opinion neutral news for some time, going back to forums is an excercise in phenominal patience. You will actually see how ridiculous things are as a whole.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
Sure, there's a group that belongs in the "Import Apologists and Liars Club".
There's also a very pronounced group very well fitted to the "Camaro's Apologists and Liars Club", let alone a "GM Liars and Apologists Club".
Flick over to a Mustang site and you'll see a group within that site that could very well form a "Mustang Apologists and Liars Club"
A person who comes up with ridiculous stories that favor Toyota is no worse than the person who swore he'd never buy another GM product because GM stopped making Pontiac.... never mind the fact that those very same Pontiacs not only come down the same assembly lines as Chevrolets, but often the same car as Chevrolets under the skin... let alone all the money made selling the car going to the same company. Taking issue with a GM car being a Pontiac or Chevrolet is as ridiculous as saying you won't buy a car with one shade of dark blue because it doesn't have another... it's the same vehicle making money for the same company.
The person bragging about the number of miles they got on their Toyota probably changed that nylon timing belt that lasts 120K miles (versus a GM, Ford, or Chrysler timing chain that lasts the life of the car. That person never went to a Tropical island and saw how those Toyotas turn to crap far quicker in salt water air than US made cars. To be sure, yes, US cars went through a period where their assembly and materials were crap. There are a few models around today whose interior materials are substandard compared to today's norm in the car market (2010 Camaro, anybody?). But Toyota isn't flawless as we've seen recently. In fact Toyota's turned out to be a pretty cynical, and devious car company as people are slowly starting to discover.
Sure, if you go to certain websites, Toyota can do no wrong. But if one doesn't like what he or she reads at a particular website, then simply don't go there.
If one actually starts feeling pretty outraged at some belief that someone put on the internet because they look at it as true with the general population, you really need to get off the internet more.
Internet forums are not reality.
They are a very narrow group of people, normally sharing a belief or enthusiasm about whatever that site is about.
And yes, there are people in all these sites (including this one) who frequently "apologise", "lie", "exaggerate", or simply gloss over the facts and cherry pick the good.
That's intenet forums.
And that's why you take it all with a grain of salt......... if that.
Last edited by guionM; 02-15-2010 at 02:11 AM.
02-15-2010, 11:11 AM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lincolnwood IL
Posts: 224
If you haven't noticed by now, alot of people on internet boards range from people who simply want to fall into the herd and out do someone to those who are simply self adsorbed mental retards.
I've weened myself off the internet, and now only post things periodically (and yes... that includes here on this site) because I've gotten tired of getting into pointless debates and arguments with people who simply don't have the simple ability to take a moment and think, let alone look at what's in front of them and come to a logical conclusion or at the very least come up with itema and points to support whatever it is they are trying to convince people of.
What you point out is simply a different version of something that infests every internet site I can think of. People who come up with really assinine claims, people who simply post just because they can, and people who simply need an audience because everything else is lacking in their life.
Try an experiment. Take a couple of weeks or more away from sites like those sites you mentioned above (and yes... I include this site as well). For your automotive news, check out the conventional press sites like Automotive News, Detroit News, or Detroit Free Press, or one of the car rag websites. Stay away from the forums. Then go back to enthusiasts websites, and various automotive forums. I guarantee you, your opinion of them will drop quite a few notches. After some time reading somewhat factual and generally opinion neutral news for some time, going back to forums is an excercise in phenominal patience. You will actually see how ridiculous things are as a whole.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
Sure, there's a group that belongs in the "Import Apologists and Liars Club".
There's also a very pronounced group very well fitted to the "Camaro's Apologists and Liars Club", let alone a "GM Liars and Apologists Club".
Flick over to a Mustang site and you'll see a group within that site that could very well form a "Mustang Apologists and Liars Club"
A person who comes up with ridiculous stories that favor Toyota is no worse than the person who swore he'd never buy another GM product because GM stopped making Pontiac.... never mind the fact that those very same Pontiacs not only come down the same assembly lines as Chevrolets, but often the same car as Chevrolets under the skin... let alone all the money made selling the car going to the same company. Taking issue with a GM car being a Pontiac or Chevrolet is as ridiculous as saying you won't buy a car with one shade of dark blue because it doesn't have another... it's the same vehicle making money for the same company.
The person bragging about the number of miles they got on their Toyota probably changed that nylon timing belt that lasts 120K miles (versus a GM, Ford, or Chrysler timing chain that lasts the life of the car. That person never went to a Tropical island and saw how those Toyotas turn to crap far quicker in salt water air than US made cars. To be sure, yes, US cars went through a period where their assembly and materials were crap. There are a few models around today whose interior materials are substandard compared to today's norm in the car market (2010 Camaro, anybody?). But Toyota isn't flawless as we've seen recently. In fact Toyota's turned out to be a pretty cynical, and devious car company as people are slowly starting to discover.
Sure, if you go to certain websites, Toyota can do no wrong. But if one doesn't like what he or she reads at a particular website, then simply don't go there.
If one actually starts feeling pretty outraged at some belief that someone put on the internet because they look at it as true with the general population, you really need to get off the internet more.
Internet forums are not reality.
They are a very narrow group of people, normally sharing a belief or enthusiasm about whatever that site is about.
And yes, there are people in all these sites (including this one) who frequently "apologise", "lie", "exaggerate", or simply gloss over the facts and cherry pick the good.
That's intenet forums.
And that's why you take it all with a grain of salt......... if that.
I've weened myself off the internet, and now only post things periodically (and yes... that includes here on this site) because I've gotten tired of getting into pointless debates and arguments with people who simply don't have the simple ability to take a moment and think, let alone look at what's in front of them and come to a logical conclusion or at the very least come up with itema and points to support whatever it is they are trying to convince people of.
What you point out is simply a different version of something that infests every internet site I can think of. People who come up with really assinine claims, people who simply post just because they can, and people who simply need an audience because everything else is lacking in their life.
Try an experiment. Take a couple of weeks or more away from sites like those sites you mentioned above (and yes... I include this site as well). For your automotive news, check out the conventional press sites like Automotive News, Detroit News, or Detroit Free Press, or one of the car rag websites. Stay away from the forums. Then go back to enthusiasts websites, and various automotive forums. I guarantee you, your opinion of them will drop quite a few notches. After some time reading somewhat factual and generally opinion neutral news for some time, going back to forums is an excercise in phenominal patience. You will actually see how ridiculous things are as a whole.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
Sure, there's a group that belongs in the "Import Apologists and Liars Club".
There's also a very pronounced group very well fitted to the "Camaro's Apologists and Liars Club", let alone a "GM Liars and Apologists Club".
Flick over to a Mustang site and you'll see a group within that site that could very well form a "Mustang Apologists and Liars Club"
A person who comes up with ridiculous stories that favor Toyota is no worse than the person who swore he'd never buy another GM product because GM stopped making Pontiac.... never mind the fact that those very same Pontiacs not only come down the same assembly lines as Chevrolets, but often the same car as Chevrolets under the skin... let alone all the money made selling the car going to the same company. Taking issue with a GM car being a Pontiac or Chevrolet is as ridiculous as saying you won't buy a car with one shade of dark blue because it doesn't have another... it's the same vehicle making money for the same company.
The person bragging about the number of miles they got on their Toyota probably changed that nylon timing belt that lasts 120K miles (versus a GM, Ford, or Chrysler timing chain that lasts the life of the car. That person never went to a Tropical island and saw how those Toyotas turn to crap far quicker in salt water air than US made cars. To be sure, yes, US cars went through a period where their assembly and materials were crap. There are a few models around today whose interior materials are substandard compared to today's norm in the car market (2010 Camaro, anybody?). But Toyota isn't flawless as we've seen recently. In fact Toyota's turned out to be a pretty cynical, and devious car company as people are slowly starting to discover.
Sure, if you go to certain websites, Toyota can do no wrong. But if one doesn't like what he or she reads at a particular website, then simply don't go there.
If one actually starts feeling pretty outraged at some belief that someone put on the internet because they look at it as true with the general population, you really need to get off the internet more.
Internet forums are not reality.
They are a very narrow group of people, normally sharing a belief or enthusiasm about whatever that site is about.
And yes, there are people in all these sites (including this one) who frequently "apologise", "lie", "exaggerate", or simply gloss over the facts and cherry pick the good.
That's intenet forums.
And that's why you take it all with a grain of salt......... if that.
02-15-2010, 12:23 PM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: MI
Posts: 806
You're no damn fun. 
Here's a couple of more actual real-life examples of quotes that will get you into the import apologist club;
Taken from:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/10/tim...iref=allsearch
Now they are complaining about the media too! How does it feel, Toyota fan-boys??
Here's a couple of more actual real-life examples of quotes that will get you into the import apologist club;
They came up with a quick solution............... When you have some of the best engineers in the world working around the clock to discover what is wrong. Things happen fast. Pluss they didn't have the problem with every gas pedal. Just the ones made in the USA. The pedals made in Japan where fine
Toyota is by far the best auto on the road today. Honda, Subaru are not too far behind. Since the world holds Toyota to such high standards they think of Toyota as being God like, perfect with out flaw. Hey, the auto's are being created by humans and not by God in Heaven. Nothing is perfect, but Toyota is not too far off. They are doing the right thing and fixing what ever needs to be done to get near perfection. Keep up the great work Toyota
I've been driving my Toyota now for over twenty years. It has 361,876 miles. The car has been in the shop only for maintenance such as oil changes, brakes & belts & so on. Toyota is number one in quality and dependability, at least to me. Toyota treats me and my family great. When my daughter baught her Corolla the sales staff was top notch. The sevice department is honest and always here to help. I don't know what's going on with CNN constantly bashing the company. Toyota's logo stands for continuous improvement. They are always improving and truly care about their customers and the enviroment. GO TOYOTA
Taken from:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/10/tim...iref=allsearch
Now they are complaining about the media too! How does it feel, Toyota fan-boys??
02-15-2010, 04:46 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 1,505
Saw this comment on Jalopnik....
1. Connect Diagnostic Computer to Diagnostic Port.
2. Wait for options list to populate
3. Scroll down to "Kamikaze Mode"
4. Toggle to "OFF" position
5. Select "Save and Exit"
6. Disconnect Diagnostic Computer from Diagnostic Port.
http://jalopnik.com/5465002/toyota-r...o-see/gallery/
1. Connect Diagnostic Computer to Diagnostic Port.
2. Wait for options list to populate
3. Scroll down to "Kamikaze Mode"
4. Toggle to "OFF" position
5. Select "Save and Exit"
6. Disconnect Diagnostic Computer from Diagnostic Port.
http://jalopnik.com/5465002/toyota-r...o-see/gallery/
Last edited by 95redLT1; 02-15-2010 at 05:14 PM.
02-15-2010, 11:07 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 1998
Posts: 30
You stated perfectly what I've always felt about these forums. Over the years I've learned which members provide good knowledge, reliable inside info, and insightful opinion and I usually just read the posts made by those members. Your posts are always on my "must read" list.
I've gotten into one or two of these forum debates only to quickly remember why it is such a waste of time, for all the exact reasons you just mentioned.
I've gotten into one or two of these forum debates only to quickly remember why it is such a waste of time, for all the exact reasons you just mentioned.
02-16-2010, 10:40 AM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Memphis
Posts: 4,338
Yes this recall has brought some real fan boy idiots out of the wood work.. but don't forget this very forum is a harbor for many members of the competing "Domestic Apologists and Liars Club". The worst concentration of mindless fanboys (for either 'side) seems to be found in the comments section of various sites ranging from youtube to edmunds.
02-16-2010, 10:41 AM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 429
After some time reading somewhat factual and generally opinion neutral news for some time, going back to forums is an excercise in phenominal patience. You will actually see how ridiculous things are as a whole.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
I am routinely attacked by certain members as a GM hater despite being from a GM family and owning a number of GM cars, simply because I'm able to take a step back and look at the big picture and not get hung up on a 15 cent hood ornament. Up until the last few months my entire 3 car stable was GM cars, but it was no matter. I was "hater" and was threatened with being banned for not drooling over everything that GM was/is doing and for putting Toyota and Honda's success in perspective.
I understand that this a GM site, but that doesn't mean logic should be dropped off at the login screen.
02-16-2010, 10:43 AM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NC
Posts: 632
I've weened myself off the internet, and now only post things periodically (and yes... that includes here on this site) because I've gotten tired of getting into pointless debates and arguments with people who simply don't have the simple ability to take a moment and think, let alone look at what's in front of them and come to a logical conclusion or at the very least come up with itema and points to support whatever it is they are trying to convince people of.
A person who comes up with ridiculous stories that favor Toyota is no worse than the person who swore he'd never buy another GM product because GM stopped making Pontiac.... never mind the fact that those very same Pontiacs not only come down the same assembly lines as Chevrolets, but often the same car as Chevrolets under the skin... let alone all the money made selling the car going to the same company. Taking issue with a GM car being a Pontiac or Chevrolet is as ridiculous as saying you won't buy a car with one shade of dark blue because it doesn't have another... it's the same vehicle making money for the same company.
Choosing between a Pontiac and a Chevrolet is just as important as choosing between a Toyota and a Chevrolet, in many respects. It's all about marketing and image, expression of self and an affinity for details. A lot of people don't understand this, but I'm sure your marketing friends in the industry DO. That's all I'll say.
Internet forums are not reality.
02-16-2010, 11:05 AM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
You're no damn fun.
Here's a couple of more actual real-life examples of quotes that will get you into the import apologist club;
Taken from:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/10/tim...iref=allsearch
Now they are complaining about the media too! How does it feel, Toyota fan-boys??
Here's a couple of more actual real-life examples of quotes that will get you into the import apologist club;
Taken from:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/10/tim...iref=allsearch
Now they are complaining about the media too! How does it feel, Toyota fan-boys??
Again, Toyota has made some very well put together vehicles over the years. They rightfully won awards for quality. However, everything Toyota does tends to be focused on creating a false image and using it to drive out the competition. Toyota's large trucks and entry into NASCAR is more of a long term effort to be thought of as an American car company. The Prius still costs more to make than it's sold for. Toyota has built such a long reputation on fuel economy that they don't even need to worry about advertising it anymore now that they aren't leaders. Toyota has the Prius and other Hybrids to take up the image.
Now, alot of what the company is like is coming to the surface.
(FWIW.... if you think I'm no fun, you haven't gone "Pub Crawling" with me yet.
)
Last edited by guionM; 02-16-2010 at 11:55 AM.
02-16-2010, 11:20 AM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: NC
Posts: 632
Yep... there's plenty of people who get hurt when truth comes out. People blame "The Media" as if the CEO from every news agency in the US gathered in a secret smokefilled club somewhere and decided that they should all write bad news about Toyota. Reminds me of the "Liberal Media" and "American Car biased" media. Sure, there are a couple that fit the bill, but the other 90% are actually reporting the news. And let's be honest... bad and bomshell news sells!
And when I talk of media, I'm talking of ALL media not just "the news". I'm talking about pop culture, production, the news, blogs, et al. A good example is GM's damaged reputation in pop culture (THINK: "Who killed the Electric Car")
Personally, I'm not a "GM apologist" as many have claimed. (research my threads at any of the sites, I criticize GM as much as anyone else) But I make no bones about the fact that I support GM, paint them in a positive light and try to paint the competitors in a negative light as much as possible. My news on web 2.0 is both fact and opinion and that's pretty obvious. To me, that's a form of being an enthusiast. I have always been that way and always stated that I am that way. It's pretty much like being on a sports team, hopefully people are bright enough to see it.
Last edited by FUTURE_OF_GM; 02-16-2010 at 11:25 AM.
02-16-2010, 11:32 AM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 161
If you haven't noticed by now, alot of people on internet boards range from people who simply want to fall into the herd and out do someone to those who are simply self adsorbed mental retards.
I've weened myself off the internet, and now only post things periodically (and yes... that includes here on this site) because I've gotten tired of getting into pointless debates and arguments with people who simply don't have the simple ability to take a moment and think, let alone look at what's in front of them and come to a logical conclusion or at the very least come up with itema and points to support whatever it is they are trying to convince people of.
What you point out is simply a different version of something that infests every internet site I can think of. People who come up with really assinine claims, people who simply post just because they can, and people who simply need an audience because everything else is lacking in their life.
Try an experiment. Take a couple of weeks or more away from sites like those sites you mentioned above (and yes... I include this site as well). For your automotive news, check out the conventional press sites like Automotive News, Detroit News, or Detroit Free Press, or one of the car rag websites. Stay away from the forums. Then go back to enthusiasts websites, and various automotive forums. I guarantee you, your opinion of them will drop quite a few notches. After some time reading somewhat factual and generally opinion neutral news for some time, going back to forums is an excercise in phenominal patience. You will actually see how ridiculous things are as a whole.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
Sure, there's a group that belongs in the "Import Apologists and Liars Club".
There's also a very pronounced group very well fitted to the "Camaro's Apologists and Liars Club", let alone a "GM Liars and Apologists Club".
Flick over to a Mustang site and you'll see a group within that site that could very well form a "Mustang Apologists and Liars Club"
A person who comes up with ridiculous stories that favor Toyota is no worse than the person who swore he'd never buy another GM product because GM stopped making Pontiac.... never mind the fact that those very same Pontiacs not only come down the same assembly lines as Chevrolets, but often the same car as Chevrolets under the skin... let alone all the money made selling the car going to the same company. Taking issue with a GM car being a Pontiac or Chevrolet is as ridiculous as saying you won't buy a car with one shade of dark blue because it doesn't have another... it's the same vehicle making money for the same company.
The person bragging about the number of miles they got on their Toyota probably changed that nylon timing belt that lasts 120K miles (versus a GM, Ford, or Chrysler timing chain that lasts the life of the car. That person never went to a Tropical island and saw how those Toyotas turn to crap far quicker in salt water air than US made cars. To be sure, yes, US cars went through a period where their assembly and materials were crap. There are a few models around today whose interior materials are substandard compared to today's norm in the car market (2010 Camaro, anybody?). But Toyota isn't flawless as we've seen recently. In fact Toyota's turned out to be a pretty cynical, and devious car company as people are slowly starting to discover.
Sure, if you go to certain websites, Toyota can do no wrong. But if one doesn't like what he or she reads at a particular website, then simply don't go there.
If one actually starts feeling pretty outraged at some belief that someone put on the internet because they look at it as true with the general population, you really need to get off the internet more.
Internet forums are not reality.
They are a very narrow group of people, normally sharing a belief or enthusiasm about whatever that site is about.
And yes, there are people in all these sites (including this one) who frequently "apologise", "lie", "exaggerate", or simply gloss over the facts and cherry pick the good.
That's intenet forums.
And that's why you take it all with a grain of salt......... if that.
I've weened myself off the internet, and now only post things periodically (and yes... that includes here on this site) because I've gotten tired of getting into pointless debates and arguments with people who simply don't have the simple ability to take a moment and think, let alone look at what's in front of them and come to a logical conclusion or at the very least come up with itema and points to support whatever it is they are trying to convince people of.
What you point out is simply a different version of something that infests every internet site I can think of. People who come up with really assinine claims, people who simply post just because they can, and people who simply need an audience because everything else is lacking in their life.
Try an experiment. Take a couple of weeks or more away from sites like those sites you mentioned above (and yes... I include this site as well). For your automotive news, check out the conventional press sites like Automotive News, Detroit News, or Detroit Free Press, or one of the car rag websites. Stay away from the forums. Then go back to enthusiasts websites, and various automotive forums. I guarantee you, your opinion of them will drop quite a few notches. After some time reading somewhat factual and generally opinion neutral news for some time, going back to forums is an excercise in phenominal patience. You will actually see how ridiculous things are as a whole.
For what it's worth, sure, the internet and various forums are good for getting opinion on alot of subjects including cars related news. However, keep in mind that enmthusiast sites are simply that.... enthusiasts. That means you aren't going to get realistic opinions that relate to what the other 99% of the public thinks, let alone facts getting in the way of a good imagination..... or soapbox.
Sure, there's a group that belongs in the "Import Apologists and Liars Club".
There's also a very pronounced group very well fitted to the "Camaro's Apologists and Liars Club", let alone a "GM Liars and Apologists Club".
Flick over to a Mustang site and you'll see a group within that site that could very well form a "Mustang Apologists and Liars Club"
A person who comes up with ridiculous stories that favor Toyota is no worse than the person who swore he'd never buy another GM product because GM stopped making Pontiac.... never mind the fact that those very same Pontiacs not only come down the same assembly lines as Chevrolets, but often the same car as Chevrolets under the skin... let alone all the money made selling the car going to the same company. Taking issue with a GM car being a Pontiac or Chevrolet is as ridiculous as saying you won't buy a car with one shade of dark blue because it doesn't have another... it's the same vehicle making money for the same company.
The person bragging about the number of miles they got on their Toyota probably changed that nylon timing belt that lasts 120K miles (versus a GM, Ford, or Chrysler timing chain that lasts the life of the car. That person never went to a Tropical island and saw how those Toyotas turn to crap far quicker in salt water air than US made cars. To be sure, yes, US cars went through a period where their assembly and materials were crap. There are a few models around today whose interior materials are substandard compared to today's norm in the car market (2010 Camaro, anybody?). But Toyota isn't flawless as we've seen recently. In fact Toyota's turned out to be a pretty cynical, and devious car company as people are slowly starting to discover.
Sure, if you go to certain websites, Toyota can do no wrong. But if one doesn't like what he or she reads at a particular website, then simply don't go there.
If one actually starts feeling pretty outraged at some belief that someone put on the internet because they look at it as true with the general population, you really need to get off the internet more.
Internet forums are not reality.
They are a very narrow group of people, normally sharing a belief or enthusiasm about whatever that site is about.
And yes, there are people in all these sites (including this one) who frequently "apologise", "lie", "exaggerate", or simply gloss over the facts and cherry pick the good.
That's intenet forums.
And that's why you take it all with a grain of salt......... if that.
You're completely over-analyzing my post. After reading the comment sections below stories on news sites (non-automotive), I was astonished by the ridiculous statements by the members of the import-defending general public. My thread was meant to have fun with the lemmings in the consumer world with the "imports are infallible, domestics are junk" groupthink - the people who generally don't know anything about cars or the automotive industry. I purposefully did not include GM/Ford/Mopar fanboys who spout things like "My Mustang can beat-up your Camaro." Maybe I should have started this thread in a different manner, but I was hoping people would post some of the ridiculous comments they've seen, rather than turning into a study of the mindsets of board posters. 
Considering your long, drawn-out reply to a thread meant to be fun, maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously.
Last edited by Z28CamaroPower!; 02-16-2010 at 11:46 AM.
02-16-2010, 11:53 AM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
I am routinely attacked by certain members as a GM hater despite being from a GM family and owning a number of GM cars, simply because I'm able to take a step back and look at the big picture and not get hung up on a 15 cent hood ornament. Up until the last few months my entire 3 car stable was GM cars, but it was no matter. I was "hater" and was threatened with being banned for not drooling over everything that GM was/is doing and for putting Toyota and Honda's success in perspective.
I understand that this a GM site, but that doesn't mean logic should be dropped off at the login screen.
I understand that this a GM site, but that doesn't mean logic should be dropped off at the login screen.
My dad was a lifelong GM man. Had a '62 Impala, a '70 Impala, a '77 Caprice, and at least 5 Chevrolet or GMC pickup trucks. I now own the 2002 mint condition Silverado Z71 he had when he died. While I was alive, mom had 2 60s era Ford station wagons, a 70 Chevelle Nomad station wagon, a '77 Grand Prix, a '78 Impala sedan, and a new 99 Dodge Neon.
My 1st car was my uncle's '68 Camaro. My 2nd was a '73 F100 Explorer 390. then I had a '77 Malibu Classic. During my military government career, I owned (in no order) 4 Chevrolet Monzas, 3 Ford Thunderbird SCs, at least 6 Mustang LX 5.0 police cars, 1 Mustang GT, and 3 4th gen Camaros.
Most trouble free cars were the Mustangs.
The Monzas were the most tossable.
The SC's were the most fun... and the most expensive to maintain.
My '97 Camaro gave me the most problems, and I found the same propblem areas of crap quality and "Mad-enough-to-shoot-the-guy-who-approved-this" ie: things like power window motors, fictional gas guages (at least in my '93 & '97). Issues that if they had cropped up in any other carmaker's vehicle that had a 10 year run, would probably have been fixed no later than the 2nd year.
Yet, I've brought this up here before (and honest criticisms), and the responses range from classic apololgists to the "If you don't like it, go somewhere else because you're anti-GM" retards.
I don't even get into debates anymore on things that are pretty obvious (ie the weight and cost of IRS versus live axles, or the horrid quality of materials the new Camaro's interior) because it's pretty pointless.
Whenever I see an absurd post about the new Corvette's brakes being from the stone age, or people who have "good personal friends" saying that Saab is going to survive, and another calling me delusional when I point out that was Saab deader than Elvis and that Chrysler is poised to make quite a bit of money when new models come out if they are breaking even with their current old fleet.
Simple stuff that is obvious I find myself getting drawn into pointless and repetitious debates. When dealing with people who are so fixed in opinion, it turns into flame wars and next thing you know you have burned up 4,5,6 hours, or even more of your day... and for what? You didn't change the person's mind with facts, the things you wanted to do that day don't get done, and you've pushed yourself into the radar of the site's ban lists.
Now, I come in occasionally. I only read a couple of threads. If I have some news to post, I'll post it. If someone says something that's worth responding to, I put up a post. Every once in a while, I'll read something really off the wall that I'll respond to.... then I will try not to revisit it. The argument or the thread. Internet forums are simply recreation. Something to do when there's nothing intresting on the TV and there's nothing constructive to do.
Most all of my new automotive tidbits come through my e-mail either from headsups from some guys working on car news stories or those inside the industry who drop me an message. And, as anyone who gets outside of a circle, you begin to realize how small that circle was.
You still have people here who to this very moment still feel that Toyota is undamaged because people as a whole are mindless lemmings who will make the 2nd biggest purchase of their life simply because someone else tells them to. In the real world, both those notions are as completely dumb as that guy who claims he got 1.2 million miles in his Toyota with no problems (either lying or at the least forgetting how many items he replaced or repaired due to wear, as all vehicles require).
I still do the forum circuits. But I don't do them every day, nor do I stay on for hours when I do. I also am able to take some of the more ridiculous claims and opinions with a grain of salt.
Anyone at a point where they feel like using the "bang head" icon more often than they used to should consider backing away from internet forums and trimming visits there as well.
02-16-2010, 12:16 PM
#15
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Focus on what you just said above:
"I was astonished by the ridiculous statements by the members of the import-defending general public."
You have just posted EXACTLY what my lengthy post was all about.
You are NOT quoting the general public. You are quoting an enthusiast of Toyota which you pulled from an internet forum.
My thread was meant to have fun with the lemmings in the consumer world with the "imports are infallible, domestics are junk" groupthink - the people who generally don't know anything about cars or the automotive industry. I purposefully did not include GM/Ford/Mopar fanboys who spout things like "My Mustang can beat-up your Camaro." Maybe I should have started this thread in a different manner, but I was hoping people would post some of the ridiculous comments they've seen, rather than turning into a study of the mindsets of board posters.
Considering your long, drawn-out reply to a thread meant to be fun, maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously.
Considering your long, drawn-out reply to a thread meant to be fun, maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously.
2. You had no intentions of including GM/Ford/Mopar. The intent, again, was to ridicule the things posted by import fanboys with the intent to show that "the general public" feels that way, and therefore the public is stupid. Yet, in the real world, that isn't a country mile of the "general public".
3. If you want to see posts of some ridiculous comments, type in a keyword in the search section of this very site and you'll find plenty.
My point to all this is that ALL sites that cater to a particular subject will gather people who feel strongly about that subject. The people who post on Forums tend to have higher intrest in the subject than most visitors.
People who tend to post things like you showcased tend to be the idiots of the site who really don't know what they are talking about.
That isn't the general public....and did you expect an "import site" to be anything but "import defending"???
.
Last edited by guionM; 02-16-2010 at 12:20 PM.