The A4/A6 and the Passat are based off the same platform, but the A4 is hardly a luxuried up version of the VW passat. The platform was first developed for Audi, and then borrowed by the Passat. It has been stretched/modified for its use since then.

The new A4 with 2.0T also has the CVT transmission in FWD applications only. As soon as you move up to Quattro, you get 6-speed.

 

So is the 350 the size of the engine or the horsepower?

 

Well for that matter the Lexus ES300 since first introduced 12 years ago until present day has always been designed first, and then the Camry becomes the 'stripped down' version of it.

But everyone still thinks of it the opposite way around and says the ES330 is a 'gussied up' Camry.

Passat/A4 are really no different.

 

3.5L V6

Just like my GS400 is a 4.0L V8

That's why when they name the car the GS450H they're saying it's equivalent to a 4.5L V8 motor in terms of power. But I think that's a bad naming practice.

 

Probably because the first ES was the ES250, and it was a dressed up Camry. The ES250 came out as a 1990 model based on the already existing Camry (same sheetmetal, same basic interior but dressed up).

Both were redesigned for MY1992. What makes the ES "first" if they were both redesigned (on the same platform) as 1992 models?

 

Yep, the 250 was a laughably weak rebadge of the Camry. Not to say that there weren't many other rebadged cars out there at the time that were literally not much more than a rebadge.

But the source for the "ES first, Camry second" is according to the engineering studios themselves, or at least what I've read and heard time and time again that the engineering studios claimed... the all new 1992 ES300 had been in design for quite some time as had the Camry, but when everything came to the approval stage Toyota realized the Camry could be a lot nicer if they took the ES300 and just found ways to save cost from there. It has been their traditional design method ever since then.

 

Just did some history on the Passat, and it is far more accurate to say that Passat was the cheaper version of Audi A4 during some years than the other way around.

Interestingly enough, only the original Passat (1973) and B5 were based off existing Audis. When Audi A4 got a new model in 2002, it no longer gave its platform to the Passat. So the model with the CVT was NOT a luxury version of the Passat.

Here are some excerpts:

B4
The third-generation Passat appeared in 1987 (1989 in North America), and was based largely on the Golf. The engine was turned around to transverse "east-west" configuration, and the floorpan was engineered to accept VW's "Syncro" four-wheel drive system. Volkswagen's new VR6 engine was also made available in 1991. Only sedan and station wagon versions were available. This version of the Passat was facelifted in 1993.

B5
The current Passat was launched in 1996, and was significant in that it returned to Audi underpinnings, again using the classic "overhung" longitudinally mounted engine with front wheel drive. All wheel drive was later introduced as an option, using a Torsen center differential for superior handling on slick surfaces. The B5 Passat shared its platform with the Audi A4, though the latter was redesigned and received a new platform in 2002.

B6
The next-generation Passat was displayed at the Geneva Motor Show in March of 2005. It features a 200 hp 2.0 L turbocharged I4 as the base engine, or a 280 hp 3.6 L VR6 engine as the upgrade and six-speed manual and automatic transmissions. The new "B6" Passat features a return to the transversely mounted engine and no longer shares its platform with the Audi A4.

 

Very interesting, thanks for the info.

Anyhow, my original point on this topic was that this is the first time I've seen a CVT on a high end high powered vehicle. And that remains so. Somebody mentioned Audi and I was saying the A4 isn't really high end... it's their entry-level vehicle and has (although now I found out it used to but no longer has) a strong connection with the Passat. The CVT was only available on the basic 1.8L turbo w/ 170hp, at around half the price of the GS450H's estimated MSRP.

I wasn't trying to say Toyota/Lexus is an innovator in the realm of CVT; just simply saying that this may be one more sign of things to come?

 

One of the oddest things about CVT is the sound of the engine. It always revs at the same (peak torque) rpms. Many people complained (even if slightly) that it doesn't sound natural.

I have not driven one myself, but that would make me hesitant to purchase a car with CVT.

 

Yeah I've heard it sounds like an auto trans that's slipping. It'd definitely take some getting used to.

On the bright side the new GS V6 has almost non-existant engine noise as is (I drove one a week or so ago, not the hybrid of course, but the same basic motor and the same exact car), and I'm no engineer, but from what I understand if the engineers are told to design a muffler and are told it will pretty much only run at a set RPM or idle and spend very little time elsewhere, it's very easy for them to bias the muffler to all but silence exhaust noise at that RPM.

Am I off my rocker on that one or is that not the case?

 

Threxx,

Did you see my post (on the first page) about how this CVT works? Not saying it isn't innovative (it is! Both Toyota's and the GM/Allison approach); merely pointing out that it isn't a traditional CVT, which helps explain how the technology is being applied to a higher power engine.

In the Allison Hybrid Electric Drives on the hybrid city buses, the engines are in the 330 hp/1050 lb-ft range. And they deal with a pretty severe duty cycle (start/stop constantly, day in and day out).

 

What is the downside to the approached Toyota/GM/Allison has used to the 'traditional' setup?

 

Well, I would assume cost (remember, these are hybrids we are talking about, with electric motors, batteries, and other hybrid-associated hardware). But I'm not trying to point out the downsides at all. I just wasn't sure, based on your original post where you point out this CVT in the Lexus, if you were aware that there was a distinction in how the CVT works. It is the fact that these hybrid vehicles have the electric motors (and the corresponding energy storage) that makes this type of CVT behavior possible, which to me is simply a neat/interesting by-product of the hybrid system.

The traditional CVT (using the drive belt and variable diameter pulleys to constantly change the gear ratio) is a completely different setup, and has thus far been rather torque limited. The electric motor/planetary automatic setup doesn't suffer from these restrictions, which is how Lexus is going to put out a 350 hp luxury sedan and GM is putting out 330 hp/1050 lb-ft 50 ft long city buses.