First the German government was in talks with GM-Opel yesterday on helping the European automakers, and then today the Swedish government is in talks with their automakers, which includes GM-Saab. I suspect it won't be long before we hear of the Australian government making similar concessions for GM-Holden.

Point of discussion: If the rest of the world is lending a hand to GM divisions overseas, just how much more help will the the struggling North American GM divisions need to survive?

Perhaps the rabbit isn't as dead as we first perceived.

Germany (GM-Opel)
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssC...00251120081117

Sweden (GM-Saab)
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...1_FORTUNE5.htm

 

That sure is interesting....heck, let the other countries spend money on GM divisions so that we don't have to. JK...I'm all for some of that 700 bil to be spent helping our domestic automakers. But let's face it, GM employs lots of people in other countries, and this recession isn't just affecting the U.S.

 

If thats the case, Its time for GM to uproot from Detroit and take up HQ in Oz, or Germany.
Maybe that will make people want to buy GM when it turns into an "import" company?
If America is not ready to help its home industry, but other countries are, why should GM continue to support America?

and Oz has been talking about support for Ford and Holden as well for a while, but for Green'ing of thier vehicles.

 

Really. How does that make the U.S. look.
Other countries are stepping up to help GM, which, technically, isn't their company, but the home country is telling GM, it's employees, it's suppliers, it's dealerships, etc. to go f*** themselves.

Makes us look rediculous.

 

Canada appears to be looking into it as well...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...7/auto-us.html

 

Agreed. America lets its automakers falter.

I think this has political tie-ins behind the scenes.

 

That's because we have so many "anti-government" so-called conservatives in this country instead of realistic conservatives that realize that government doesn't run on air and there are times when it's cheaper to help companies than to pay even more in unemployment fallout. Bailing out GM goes against everything they believe in.

Other countries are more willing to work the actual problem and less likely to watch their country or industry collaspe because of some dogma and ridiculous self destructive politics.

New auto company loans have zero support from republicans in congress, and there isn't enough votes in the Senate to overcome a filibuster (a mechinism that enables minority parties in congress to prevent legislation unless 60 members vote to shut down the roadblock).

 

So are you saying that conservatives who have lived their whole lives supporting the ideals of a capitalistic marketplace (where risk, when successful, is rewarded and failure punished) are supposed to put their beliefs aside because of the "size" of the company asking for money?

Are people no longer allowed to disagree?

It's difficult to be sympathetic to GM/Ford/Chrysler, when those who have reasons to know have been warning them for years and for that matter, when the marketplace have been warning them for years that there would be a day of reconning.

It's especially difficult when you have GM begging for money while Wagoner says he doesn't think he should resign and Gettelfinger threatens that the UAW won't make any more concessions.

It's likely in my own best self-interest that GM survive but doe that mean I should compromise my principles?

And if I do, were they really principles at all or just hollow words that sound good until tested by adversity?

 

Wagoner wants in because he won't get a golden parachute if the gov't steps in. His motives appear outwardly to be personal greed, at the expense of the rest of the country. If his personal agenda sidetracks this entire situation, he should be hung.

 

Before everyone starts talking about how "generous" other governments are, this is what they have in mind. And I've read about a half dozen similar stories over the past few days.

AN Europe:


GM can't be saved but Opel can

Guido Reinking
Automotive News Europe
November 18, 2008 15:27 CET


RUESSELSHEIM -- However many billions the U.S. government spends on the rescue of General Motors, everyone should understand in the meantime that this only postpones the demise of the American auto giant.

The Detroit colossus has been heading toward the precipice for years. All efforts to halt its decline have failed. The financial crisis has now turned an upstream battle into a freefall. The crash is waiting at its end.

The German federal government should be clear about this before it promises Opel, GM's German subsidiary, guarantees or loans. The issue now has to be saving Opel. GM has been doomed for a long time.

So what is to be done? Government guarantees or loans should only be granted in exchange for potential capital participation in Opel.

If the money isn't paid back, Opel has to go to the federal government or the German state-owned development bank KfW. That could be the first step to disassociate Opel from GM and to find a new investor for the venerable German brand. GM hasn't known what to do with Opel for a long time.

Under the GM corporate umbrella, the brand has risked being ground up between the low-cost Chevrolet brand and pointless luxury fantasies at Saab and Cadillac.

This doesn't just involve the 27,000 Opel employees. It also involves at least twice as many jobs at suppliers and many thousands more at dealerships.

Opel has a good reputation

Opel continues to have a good reputation internationally. Its cars have long had premium quality. The technical know-how at Opel's Ruesselsheim headquarters is a jewel of the industry.

Any company that can design a car like the Opel Insignia and build it at competitive costs does not deserve to be pushed over the precipice along with a dilapidated U.S. company. Potential investors know this, too.

And who is to blame for this disaster? It is not the wrong policy model or too many rebates on new cars. It is, above all, the U.S. social system, which is at Third World levels.

GM has had to guarantee the retirement and health costs of hundreds of thousands of retirees and employees for decades in the U.S. because there is inadequate governmental health and retirement insurance.

The company had to earn thousands of dollars per car to pay this. That is money that Toyota, Honda and Hyundai could put in their products.

It has been clear for years that GM cannot shoulder this burden over the long haul. But when the government in Washington still had time, it didn't want to hear about the problem.

Now it's too late. GM can no longer be saved. But Opel absolutely can.

 

In the 1920s, the US government stood by laissez faire principles and allowed its distressed industries to collapse, because that was what the market dictated. A 24.9 percent unemployment rate soon followed. Some people would prefer to avoid such unpleasantries in the future.

 

I'm not willing to avoid such "unpleasantries" if the cost of avoiding them is moving toward a government like Germany (France/England/Sweden, etc).

 

I desperately want the big 3 to survive and thrive. But there's nothing wrong with having an inquiry and a process before billions and billions of taxpayer dollars are handed over.

Nothing wrong with putting the senior leadership of the auto biz in the hotseat. Nothing wrong with asking them, "what is your plan - EXACTLY?" or "how will you spend this money -EXACTLY?". I mean these guys have demonstrated that they can burn through more wealth, more quickly, than most multi-nation, regional wars burn through.

Help the auto industry -yes, but simply handing them unimagineable amounts of cash, unconditionally, simply because they 'asked' for it, is foolhardy.

 

I dont think anyone, even myself, wants to hand the Big 3 free cash to do what they want. I want to see a ROI.
I wonder how far the goverment would go to remove the unions without putting GM into BK?

 

I think a big part that needs to be considered here is that if other governments are willing to support the local GM divisions within their countries, then the potential impact on US taxpayers should the Federal government come to GM's aid is much less of a burden. With additional resources coming in from across the globe, it improves the likelyhood of GM's US operations having better chance of rebounding and not only surviving, but improving and becoming profitable if they can trim the fat.

Things may not be as bleak as the media portrays.