It has to be done.

They're dead anyway, and this is the only way to save whatever part of it can be saved.

I wish it were different...

But it's not.



The entirety of American Industry hinges on these three Detroit companies now and whatever part of them can be saved...

Steel...

Plastics...

Defense...




Wake up. Smell the coffee. It's not just Detroit. If you're in electronics, you're going to get hurt too. If you're in finance, you're gonna get hurt too. If you're in the medical field, you're gonna get hurt too.

We are collectively going to HAVE TO realize that we have to hang together with our manufacturing companies, or we're going to hang separately.

 

Well spoken, and I agree...

 

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you feel this way. I figured you would know better than anyone that this is a business, a CUT-THROAT business, and emotions need to be removed from the equation.

Would I like it? Of course not. But either GM does something drastic to stay afloat or there IS no American automobile manufacturer left standing. Period.

 

You read my mind. That would be a big factor, I'm guessing.

EDIT: Latest Update: http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...october-70341/

 

My very first thought was "that's terrible."

But in all honesty, I just don't give a **** anymore

A small part of me wants all three to fail just to show everyone... see what happens...

 

I am sickened over this pending deal.
GM wants Chrysler for only 2 reasons.
1) to get their hands on their cash
2) to eliminate a competitor

Number 2 smacks of a monopolistic move to me and should not be allowed.

Too many people rely on Chrysler's continuance. I think I read about 66,000 people. I'm not sure if that's right. If it is correct, that means that 66,000 people will hit the unemployment line all at once. And those were good paying jobs. I can't imagine what that would do to the already fragile economy.

This has to be stopped. I think Renault-Nissan would be a better fit for Chrysler.

 

How about Chrysler products?

Dodge:

**** Avenger
**** Charger
**** Challenger
**** Ram
**** Journey
**** Dart

Chrysler:

**** Town and Country
**** Prowler
**** Crossfire

Jeep:

**** Wrangler
**** Liberty
**** Patriot
**** Commander

 

awesome!

 

Any company would love to do this. Regardless of what you think Chrylser is a competitor of GM. PERIOD.

If my company had the chance to trade a bleeding division that could only get worse (GMAC) for a competitor + their cash. We would do it in a HEARTBEAT!!!

It means more potential customers for us, + a lot of money, + getting rid of a division that has the potential to put us out of business anyways (GMAC).

I'm not saying that I like it, in fact I would hate it. But as far as a business decision it would be a good one.

And it would not be a monopolistic move. We still have GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, BMW, Mercedes, etc etc etc.

 

Wall Street Journal reports that talks are continuing and JP Morgan Chase is pushing a deal. Might be finalized by the end of the month. There will be massive layoffs if this goes through.

 

And what do you think General Motors is anyways??? They originally did not even make cars, they were a holding company for Buick.

Every division of General Motors (save a few) originally were their own companies:

Chevrolet
Pontiac
Buick
Cadillac
Oldsmobile

and probably a few more I've forgot.

Now we can just add Chrysler and Jeep to that list if this happens...

The problem with GM and IMO is where they messed up a LONG LONG time ago, is when they started using common parts across car divisions (at least major parts was a problem). Same engines, same architectures, same trannies, same rearends, etc...

Remember the days when Pontiac had it's own engines (400 and 455 BB)... oh well.

 

Pontiac was actually started as a division of Oakland which was already part of GM at that point. Ridiculously nitpicky, I know, but I hadda say it. Just hadda!

They ALL had their own engines. And there actually was an outcry when they changed. There was a whole class action suit brought by Grand Prix owners in 1977 when they found out their cars had Oldsmobile 403 engines rather than 400 Pontiacs.

 

If you didn't say it I would have.

 

I don't see why you'd be surprized at my feelings on this.

I'm strongly domestic in my automotive enthusiasm. I'm strongly a pull-yourself-up and fix-the-problem type of guy. I ranted for years about how DaimlerBenz hoodwinked Chrysler's board and investors with a "Merger of equals" line, then proceeded to systematically take one of the planet's most lucrative automotive companies and proceed to raid it's cash stockpile and use it for everything from creating a new division (Smart) to revamping their entire lineup to giving large bonuses to everyone on the Daimler side from CEOs to shop workers while Chrysler faced cut programs, shuttered factories and decimated white collar staffing.... think about this: Daimler claimed that Chrysler was inefficient and needed these drastic actions... yet Chrysler had far more money in the bank than GM (despite being only a fraction of the size), the lowest production costs of any US or European automaker, and had an aggressive new product pipeline.

If Chrysler was like GM and ran themselves into the ground (much like AMC did) then I would feel differently. AMC didn't capitalize on the fuel crisis of the 70s and invest in anything other than the Pacer. The same body styles that came out in 1970 were still available in the mid 80s when Chrysler bought them out.

But in this case, it's not Chrysler that's ailing... it's GM. Unfortunately, Chrysler isn't run by auto industry executives. It's run by a financial house. It isn't overseen by stockholders or a family whose name is on the hood of each vehicle. It's run by speculators with a CEO that didn't even come from a manufacturing background let alone a automotive one.

Chrysler, especially for it's size and current market conditions, is very well off financially. Globally, Chrysler sold about 2 million vehicles last year. GM did twice that in the North America alone, yet has roughly 60% of the cash in the bank that GM has. With Chrysler's historic reputation for taking risks & getting cars approved quickly, under someone who had an industrial or automotive background and a board of directors that actually gave a damn about the company's future instead of focusing on what creates the biggest payoff, Chrysler IMO would have a pretty good chance of survival.

All GM is going to do with Chrysler's money is keep themselves afloat for an additional 11 months (GM is burning $1 billion monthly!). GM isn't going to use the money to build Euro or Aussie vehicles here. They aren't going to use the money to buy out the contracts of half it's workers. The money by all indications is not going to be used to improve GM one iota. The money is going to be fed into GM's cash incinerator with the hope that by the end of 11 months when the money runs out, GM's labor agreements kick in, the Volt and Cruze are out, and GM makes money.

The Volt isn't a money maker.

The Cruze, while likely excellent, isn't going to rake in the cash that individual trucks, suvs, or even crossovers rake in.

GM isn't going to save anywhere near $12 billion per year on labor agreements.

Chrysler would be dissolved for no reason and no good outside of Cerberus getting GMAC and GM getting an extra year before facing inevitable choices.

That's what has me worked up about this.

 

It seems like in that thread on GMI someone speculated a scenario that seems more likely...

GM trades all or most of their stake in GMAC for Chrysler's cash and whatever assets they want (Jeep, Minivans, and iconic nameplates so they can't be reused). At that point Cerberus just bankrupts the remaining bit of Chrysler. In a strict sense it wouldn't really be GM that is killing Chrysler, but Cerberus. Dunno how this would shake out if it went down like that but it is possible that GM could end up stronger afterwards. A lot of Chrysler employees would be SOL though.

The other tidbit that seems interesting is that perhaps JP Morgan - Chase might end up with a large interest in GM and or Cerberus...

I don't know what the chance is that a deal will be cut, but I would bet that if it does it will mean the end of Chrysler.