No one questions the power of the 4th gen's engines or it's handling ability, but no one here has ever mentioned how well the structure was engineered.

Yesterday I had a chance to see a cross section of a Camaro's unitized body. the word "Tank" comes to mind.

Compared to a "Fox" Mustang, the F-Body is made of heavier gauge steel in the body construction. Compared to the "fox", it almost looks like overkill. There is also a massive "double box" on the lower interior perimeter (under the door sill) that makes the Fox Mustang's look down right scary by comparison.

The roof construction is also pretty impressive (upper & side "B" pillar). The area above the driver and passenger on the hardtops have nothing but insulation and a flimsy skin (hardtop f-bodies still have t-top stampings in the roof), but the rear of the roof section have double stamped steel section that looks pretty massive, and along with the front pillars seem capable of almost supporting the entire car's weight.

The Mustang was designed to be light weight, and it shows. Every Mustang I've seen that was involved in a head on crash, seems to at the very least slightly buckle in the center, and there seems a good reason for that. Thinner steel, smaller box frame, lighterweight steel in the roof section. The roof seems to have as much responsibility holding the car together as the chassis, where Camaro seems almost as if it has a built in frame.

I just want to say it's pretty impressive, and there's a reason why 4th gen F-bodies have the maximum 5 star crash rating!

 

It is very strong. I've seen what these cars can be put through, and I'm very impressed. I say to anyone who can get a chance to see a cutaway car, or one cut in half as I have, do it. You will like what you see.

 

I guess that help explains where all the weight goes in the car!

 

Amen.

If they had spent a little more time on the little detail fit & finish pieces, and not overlooked things like the cat-hump, sales may have not been the problem they were.... though I still blame that generally on dealer stock and marketing.

 

Don't blame the dealers Darth! Dealers order whatever they need to sell. Lately, the top of the line models, WS6 and SS, were the only models that stayed consistant in sales. That's why you see so many top of the line models still on dealer lots, not because they are not selling. If the sixes were the hot item, you'd see many more sixes. A stripped down V8 model, regardless of what some of the people on this board think, would not be a hot seller in today's market. It's a different world out there with new competition, and the next f-body will have to better adapt itself to this competition.

 

Bullcrap...

Dealers are to blame, and I can speak from experience seeing as how I sold 35 Firebirds at my dealer in '02...a dealer that had sold 1 in 2 years. Wanna know why I blame dealers?

1) Who wants to order and buy a car they can't even test drive first? If dealers never have the car, how can you possibly drive one to even see if you like it?
2) V6s do sell...they were my better selling models. 5 speed V6s were the way to go...you get the people who want the sport without the price of the 8. My 5 speeds always sold faster than the ATs
3) Depending on what you mean by a "stripped down" model, yes they do sell. I sold as many Formulas (10) as I did Firehawks in '02. All were $27,500...cars with chrome wheels and Hurst if it was a 6 speed, or performance axle if it was an AT. No leather, no TCS, no 12 discs...people liked the performance of a TA for $3,000 less on average. I was the only dealer in my state that even had a Formula most of the time!
4) Sports cars are an impulse buy. People see it on the lot, get in it, feel it, then decide if they HAVE to have it, or not. If it isn't on the lot, how the hell can that happen? People don't need these cars, but many want them...they just don't know it

When it comes to dealers, I think I have more experience probably than anyone else here. I ordered all our '02s, sold 80% of them, and sat down and asked people about their experiences with other dealers with Firebirds. 75% had none in stock in the MA/CT/NY area, if they did they weren't that knoweldegable about the car, and to top it off, if they did have one, it was a $32,500 black WS6 9 times out of 10. Thats not creative, and it isn't for everyone. 6 of the 10 who bought Formulas didn't even know they MADE Formulas anymore!

I hold dealers as responsible as GM for the car's demise, for all the above reasons. GM should FORCE dealers to carry EVERY model (yes, I even have an Aztek on the lot, even though I hate having it ), as much as possible. How can you represent your product if those who represent it for you don't know it and/or don't even carry it?!??!?!

 

When I was looking for a WS6 in '98, every single dealer I talked with tried to talk me into buying something else on their lot. And a couple years later, when at the local B-O-P dealer looking at Intrigues for the wife, I overheard a conversation between a young engineering grad (like myself a few years prior) and a salesworm, with Mr. Skinny Tie doing everything he could to talk the kid into buying - get this - a loaded Sunfire instead!

Blame a lot of things, but make sure some of it falls on the dealer's shoulders. They don't care about the product they're selling; they just want to put another notch in their monthly sales belt.

Back to the topic at hand, the 4th-gen F-body was indeed built very well compared to its competition. Go read some reviews from rags like Car and Driver from '93 and '94, and you'll find a ton of praise for the chassis rigidity of both the couple and 'vert. Only when the F-body was destined for death did it become fashionable to criticize its structure. The Mustang? Man, you might as well be driving a tin can straight into a traffic accident. Chassis engineering has come a long ways since the Fox platform debuted.

 

If even 20% of the Chevy and Pontiac dealerships put someone like Jason E in charge of ordering their Camaros and Firebirds... and trained people to SELL THEM, and not STEER PEOPLE AWAY like Eric said... we wouldn't be in this situation, IMO.


My buddy's MOM wanted to buy a V6 Firebird in 2001... she went to the dealership, and salesman talked her out of buying it... saying "No one drives these things anymore, you dont want that!"

... she listened... and left.

I just dont understand!

 

Thank you Darth...and wanna know what the sad thing is?? I had to fight these guys tooth and nail to even get the first FIVE ordered. Once they sold within 15 days, they became believers in me, and now I do all the ordering for the dealership.

So for all those dealers who turned customers away?? Here's what I had for '02...my apologies if you've seen this somewhere before. Its sad I have this list memorized, but hey...I gave life to all of them...they became my babies I even have pics of each one!

The list:

V6:
1 Maple Red 5 speed, 1 Navy 5 speed, one Red GT (RARE) 5 speed, one Maple Red AT, 2 Silver AT Convertibles (one still in stock)

Formulas:
2 Red 6 speeds (one totaled and sent back to GM...was delivered with a smashed in RR fender! Wonder what happened to it ), 2 Pewter AT, 1 Navy Blue 6 speed, 1 Black 6 speed, 1 Sunset Orange 6 speed (My dads!!!!), 2 Red AT, 1 Maple AT

T/As:
1 Navy 6 speed, 1 white AT, 1 Red and 1 Blue AT convertible (still have the red one in stock)

WS6s:
1 Pewter AT, 1 Black AT, 1 Black 6 speed

Firehawks:
1 blue and 1 red FORMULA , 1 black and 1 Red TA convertible, 2 black TAs, 1 Blue TA, 2 silver TAs....and one I can't remember...but we had 10!!

So thats what a true F body enthusiast did with his passion...brought to life 35 and bitched at a sales manager who had only ordered one in 2 years. I met some amazing people this year, and had people from as far away as South Carolina fly up and drive home a plain old Formula!!! GM and dealers failed these cars...the market was, is, and always will be there. I wish I had bought one of the Formula Hawks for myself, as with all my discounts, one with Bilstein, Chrome wheels and everything was only $26,500 But I'm too damn attached to the 30th...

Its ok though, because the Sunset Orange Formula my dad has only has 389 miles on it to date...and will be mine as soon as I can talk him into an '07 Camaro

 

BTW, note the high # of Formulas and Hawks. I could have sold probably 5 more of each had I had them around...I underestimated the damn market even though I had more around in one place than the other dealers combined within 200 miles of me! I constantly did locates to see what other dealer had...and it wasn't much.

Wanna know why so many Hawks and so few WS6s? A WS6 hood to me personifies the overly macho image the car suffers from...its like an anteater IMO. The Hawk though? For $1,000 more than a WS6, what a bargain...and that hood? Oh, so sweet...

Now what do I have to look forward to? GTOs, if I can get them. But nothing was like '02...it was great to make my own statement on the death of the F bod. Every GM rep that came through got their ear chewed off by me I'd like to think I made a difference, but I doubt it...

Red Planet, are you listening? Theres someone who wants to be on your team!! Is an MBA, dealer experience and a passion for anything RWD, V8 and GM good enough??

 

That can't be true of the big bad 4th-gen

Anyways, I agree with Darth to an extent about lack of dealer involvement. Just speaking from personal experience with 3 local Pontiac dealerships, I could count the number of Firebird's on the lot (98+) that I saw on my two hands....in 5 years time. The local Chevy dealers (excluding Tom Henry) were much the same way. You were lucky if you saw one new f-body on the lot. Now I'm not saying that this led directly to the f-body's demise, but it certainly didn't help. Heck, I bet that a number of "non car people" thought that the car was canceled 6 years ago.


-Mike

 

Hats off to you Jason E!!

I must admit, I've had dreams of selling Camaro's and Firebirds. My experience with dealerships have been horrible. My first purchase, I knew just what I wanted. It took them hours to find it and left me sitting and wating the whole time. I was so mad, but I ended up pushing a good deal. Another dealership didn't even know what engines it had and had to ask his manager! I told him, but he didn't believe me! That was one of my first experiences.

I tell you I knew 5x as much as any of these guys. Makes you wonder how they do their job! And I only know it becuase it's a hobby!

Wish I was near you because I might have bought one of those formulas. Red 6-speed. Ahhh well...mine is in good hands and isn't leaving!

 

Truer words haven't been spoken yet...I sold a lady an '01 Grand Am back in June 2001...she had bought an '86 Camaro brand new, then traded it for a '94 Grand Am, then for the '01. I mentioned something about ordering some Firebirds to my manager, and she said "wow, they still make those? Do they make Camaros still too? I loved mine"...

3 months before the "official" word came out, this person thought the cars had been dead for years...a pity...

 

I think it would be very valuable for General Motors to consider bringing in some of the successful F-Body dealership personell, such as Jason E, and the person from Tom Henry Chevy in Pittsburgh, and talk about what they did to be successful with Camaro and Firebird.

I think Tom Henry was a little differetn in the fact that they offered their own "Yenko-type" dealer version of the car... but Jason E proves that even factory optioned cars can be a hit!!!

This is stuff I have been saying for years... makes me so MAD!!!

I have about 5 Chevy dealers that I'd coinsider "local"... two are rather huge. Of those 5, I could probably find a total of 6-8 Camaros at any given time. And they always were automatic, and they always were red, black, or pewter.

I have 2 "local" Pontiac dealers. One [i] at best [/.i] would have 1 Firebird... the other would actually stock about 4-5, but they were all ideantically equippened fully loaded automatic WS6's... in red, black or pewter.

How about stocking some variety... it works. Jason E proved it.

How about knowing the car and it's features... it works... Jason E proved it.

How about not steering people away from F-Bodys.... it works. Jason E proved it.

 

Now keep in mind...they decided to kill the car in 95-96 (when they were selling (100,000+ Camaros a year)...if you noticed it is after that time sales dropped. In order to close Ste. Therese they needed an excuse. You can hardly justify closing a plant when teh car sells over 100,000+ units a year....so what do you do? Stangle it within. Cut marketing and development budgets, don;t teach dealers about the car, and raise prices.

If you looks the Camaro didn't get anything that was developed for it exclusivly since 96 except the new interior (was already in development when the decision was made to kill the car) and the new front end, which had to happen becaus ethey were stopping production on the LT1, and the union stuff wouldn't allow them to cancel the car in 98. From there on out is was wheels and thats it.

However if you looks at the Mustang..it has recieved pretty much the same levels of development over that time time period and sold well.

What I am getting at is that GM needed people to think the car was dead (by not marketing or further developing the car, teaching dealers, ect.), so people would have no intereast in them. Then sales would drop and they could justify closing Ste. Therese when they did.


Why did they have to close the plant? I think we all know that by now...
It's not that GM couldn't market the car...it's that they didn;t want to.