Jason E

Let's take a different approach for a moment. Instead of blaming all of GM's issues on poor product, poor time-to-market for new products, management, the UAW, cheap foreign labor etc...how about a new target? How about the goofballs that actually SELL the product?

This phenomenon occured to me the other night. I, like many of you, have a GM card. I love my GM card. Not only have I accrued almost $1,600 in GM rebate points in less than 3 years (buying a house has added nearly $1k of that in one year ), but the customer service is top notch and I get "special" offers to boot. The latest one I received yesterday in the mail was an additional $500-1,000 off specific models. Even though I love my GP and have no intentions to part with it (despite my post about my beloved G6 GTP coupe), I began wondering what kind of deal I could get on a cheap new car...namely a Cobalt.

So I go onto GM BuyPower and spec out a Cobalt. Specifically, an LS Coupe 5 speed. I add the typical options one would expect on a sporty coupe...Pioneer radio for $150, moonroof for $725, and the "LS Sport" package for the steal of $595 that adds 16" alloys, white-faced gagues, leather wheel and shift ****, fog lights, a spoiler and a chrome exhaust tip. I'm not picky on colors, so I ask the website to find me a "1SB" LS coupe.

How many do you think I found????

ZERO. IN A FIFTY MILE RADIUS. AT 7 DIFFERENT CHEVY DEALERS.

Now, what the hell is so special about that car? Not only could I not find an LS sport with a stick, I only found 1 LS coupe with a stick, period!!!!! WTF? What is so special about that car? Take a coupe, add a sport package and a roof (I can live without the Pioneer), and call it a day. If I worked at a Chevy dealer instead of a Pontiac dealer, this is the type of car I'd have AT LEAST 3-4 of at all times.

So what's my point? With the give-away price GM is offering me, I STILL can't buy a damn car! The one LS coupe I found didn't even have a friggen sunroof, which to me is mandatory. When Sunfires were actually a decent car (shut up, because there was a time), I ordered tons with sunroofs and sticks and they sold all day long...people would come in off BuyPower in disbelief that a GM dealer ACTUALLY HAD A STICK.

Dealers select what they want to sell. This is just like the F body issue. If you don't stock them, you can't sell them. How can Chevy convey the sporty, fun image of a Cobalt if every friggen dealer around here has silver, white, beige and "blue grey" LS sedans clogging up the damn lots?

I believe dealers are a significant part of the problem now. People can't buy what someone doesn't stock. Picture going to a Nissan dealer and not being able to find a stick. Or a Honda dealer. Or a Mazda dealer. Or a Toyota dealer. We compete with these cars, and yet dealers don't even bother to stock comparable cars!!!!!

And of course, when you do find a "desireable" model like an '04 GTO, dealers rape you on them (BTW, we didn't, FWIW). GM wouldn't have needed to put a $5,500 rebate on the damn cars at year end if more people had been able to, you know, not get their *** handed to them when they wanted to buy it in the first place.

Is their any relief? Can thoughtful, rational people begin to stock cars at GM dealerships? Am I on crack? Because I'm a dealer myself, I think I'm allowed to say this...GM's dealer network is as much of a problem as anything stated in the opening paragraph.

Caps94ZODG

I have said this problem is a little of the dealers fault..when I took my Camaro to get its last inspection sticker in MA in 2003 well I walked into the showroom, what did they have, a base model S10, a malibu and a minivan..IN THE SHOWROOM!
Now I go to the Ford dealer in my old home town and there in the showroom back in 2003 sat a red Thunderbird, white MACH1 and a blue Lightning..when people see the halo cars they think they are getting a peice of that in whatever they buy.
I drove by a Mazda dealer and they had all the RX-8's out front, good advertising in bright colors too yellow red blue..the chevy dealer..trucks..Ford had a few v6 stangs but in the showroom a FORD GT..marked up 150K..
Pontiac had a row of trans ams 2 months ago on the lot 2 35th anniversary editions too, then a row of GTO's the month after that..

gotta sell the excitement if they want to sell the vanilla cars..

I might stop by the Dodge jeep dealer and see what they have in there showroom I bet you its gotta have a HEMI in it..

I say if you have a GM dealership you need these cars in there..

Chevy: CobaltSS has to be there, Also anything from the SS line...Monte, Impy, SSR, Silverado..and in the middle the Corvette..

Buick: there two new cars or till the other new one maybee, but the LaCrosse, LeSabre,and a Rainier SUV in there.

Saturn: Ion Redline, VUE Redline and when out the SKY..till then maybee a Saturn ION with a sports package..

SAAB: well anything can go in there but I say the 92x or whatever its called needs to be centerpeiced..

Hummer: thats easy..H1 2 and now 3 end of that..

Pontiac: needs to be the GXP line maybee the Bonnie GXP, GTO and the Solstice when out..

Caddy: needs to have the V Series CTS, an XLR and an STS...

GMC: small medium to large of there most decked out , Canyon,Sierras,and Yukon built like it was a work truck..

Oldmobile: the new 442, with the LS1 RWD Cutlass and the Bravada. (j/k guys)

MunchE

It's a bad combination. There's a lack of product, and when there is a good product the dealers do a decent job of botching it so the skeptics who went to the GM dealer feel justified in never coming back. Right now GM has a bad perception, so when people actually DO come in the door, it only takes a little bit of mistreatment to send them running back to the "high quality" Honda/Toyota. I spent 10-15 minutes at a Chevy dealer and the sales people ignored me, even though I showed obvious interest in the Cobalt SS and stood around looking at it for a while. It also had a 2k dealer markup *rolleyes*

Add to that what you say, dealers not realizing a lot of young buyers want manual transmissions etc. and it just makes for bad news. The dealers have to try a lot harder, there are a lot of bad images for Chevy to overcome, and it seems like they aren't bothering in a lot of cases.

graham

I kicked some tires yesterday afternoon to find an '05 Silverado regular cab 2WD, with the 4.8L motor for almost $27K.

I threw up a little bit in my mouth.

My father bought a '00, in late 99 just like it except his was a stepside bed for a lil over 5 grand less.

Big Als Z

My friend actualy just orderd that very same combo, and of course....NO ONE had one. They had to order it for him, and its gunna be some time before he gets it.
He wanted a stick, and they had nothing to offer him.
Rather sad, and I think that dealers need to plan better. I remember someone talking about it either here or on GMI that the Mangers that order the cars tend to be older and out of touch with what most people want.

AronZ28

I would have to agree. I went to the Chevy dealership in Nashville to look at a C6(the "smaller" Franklin dealership hasn't had one C6 in stock, they said anybody who wants a C6 has to order it). They had a red and white coupe decked out with every option including nav and the Z51 suspension package. Now here's the real kicker, both were automatics. People who want an automatic don't want to put up with the rougher ride of the Z51. People who want the Z51 would demand a stick IMO.

You can blame the delears all you want for not doing their job, but in the end it is GM's fault. I know people who have bought a new Lexus and Cadillac, and they were both very satisfied with the way they are treated at the dealership. Cadillac and Lexus demand that their customers recieve exceptional service. I don't see why GM cannot force their other brands to offer the same level of professionalism and service that Cadillac and Saturn offer.

number77

if i was looking to buy a car, i would be VERY reluctant to buy a GM car because i know the dealers will not honor a warranty. wayyyy too many stories. i have talked about it before, but no one seemed interested enough to talk about it.

90 Z28SS

Most of the GM dealers around , as stated by them , will not stock manual transmission cars . There was a point back in 2000 I nearly ordered a brand new Z28 , and the dealer wanted a huge chunk of money down before they would even order it , because their exact words "we dont want this thing stuck on our lots if you back out because we dont stock manual cars " .

As for Cobalt coupes around here , I have yet to see one with a sunroof , manual transmission , the sport package or leather or anything like . We still havent even had a SS local yet . Even the sedans , its either a base model or a full boat LT in stock .

We have one Pontiac dealer local that is set up like Saturn . They have this thing called no-bull pricing , where they have their own second sticker which is a haggle free price and their service is head of the class . My mom will not buy anything but a pontiac anymore just because of this dealer . They didnt mark up the GTO's when they first came out and for an example of the 2005's , they have a 6 speed 05 , they added chrome 18" wheels and tires to , which added $28xx to the price of the car . But , its no-bulled at $33xxx , so its like u get the rims for free . Every dealer needs to be like this . Its not like the discounts are very huge , average no bull price is about $1600-2000 off sticker , but you can also add GM's rebates and what not to that price too .

number77

a reason people are realuctant to buy new cars is that they are worried that they will be ripped off (or could get a significantly better price else where, or if they held out a little longer), that is why i am not suprised that the haggle-free system you described works.

steves

I think it is because the managers that order the cars have no product knowlege. I worked at a chevy dealership last year for a couple of months and the manager would keep the worst cars on the floor like biege stripped down malibu, trackers, ect. and in front of the store we would have about the same type of cars. When I told him the last place I worked for the manager would have cars that sold well on the floor (a dealership that is way more successful BTW) his comment was "if I don't display these cars we'll never get rid of them".

I also think that GM doesn't train the sales force well enough to handle their new products. I am a VW salesman and we are required to take classes on every new product. I took an 8 hour class on the new Jetta and now I am scheduled to take an 8 hour class on the new Passat;we are also required to have 10 hours (which ends up being about two work days or 16 hours of my free time) of class time and 10 hours of other web based training a year. When I worked at Chevrolet they were going to have a "ride and drive". I have no clue what kind of class time there was. Didn't stick around long enough to find out what other training there was (BTW I sold more cars the first week at the Chevy dealrship than some of the salesmen sold in one month).

Let me tell you guys about my last experience I had at the Pontiac dealer on Friday night. My buddy is looking at either a GXP or GTO. We met this young salesman, while we were there. I was curious to see how he was going to handle us. First he asked us what we thought we were going to pay for these hot cars because they were not negotiating much on these cars but he would try his best to get us the deal we wanted. We told him we wanted to pay a couple of hundred over invoice minus the rebates (to see his response). His response was lets go drive the GTP Comp G because that will put my buddy in the price range he wants to be in. (1st mistake you take the customer on a test drive in what they want to drive you will have a better chance at getting a deal). So we end up driving the GTP and my buddy liked it except for the way the dash board looked. So the salesman says "it looks awsome whats wrong with you" (2nd mistake never argue with your customer). We end up going back to the dealership and he starts telling us about the GXP and the 4.6 liter northstar engine and how fast it is(3rd mistake no product knowlege, how are you going to gain a customers trust when you lie to them). I then corrected his mistake and asked him if he would like a quick lesson on the Grand Prix and GTO. We then told him about my friends supplier discount and he was a little P.O.'d because he wasted his time with us because he's gonna make a mini-deal on us (4th mistake a car out is a car closer to your quota). So then we get to meet his sales manager and he tells us to forget about the GXP and the GTO because he has this new G6 GTP that is supercharged and a manual transmission and he ordered 7 and their getting them in the next week (again lack of product knowlege). This is typical in any GM dealership. I've owned over 30 cars at least 20 of them were brand new and 1/2 of them were non GM cars and I find that my story is what to expect from a GM dealership.

Eric Bryant

Want an example of a tough vehicle to find? Look for a basic Silverado HD, longbox/regular-cab, with a Duramax. Anything on a lot with a diesel is likely a crew-cab short-box, and fully-loaded. A friend of mine was looking for such a truck during one of the recent promos and couldn't find one within a six-hour drive. I mean, after all, who's want a heavy-duty diesel truck in a configuration actually conducive to doing some work? That'd be as crazy as buying a sports car with a manual transmission.

Yes, GM's dealers are definitely a problem, but in my experience, Honda and Toyota dealers are just as bad.

94LightningGal

Actually, I'm glad someone brought this up............... as I think this is a huge problem.

Sales statistics have shown that Chevrolet dealerships are the least efficient out there. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like........... Ford sells as many cars/trucks with 3800 dealerships as Chevrolet does with 5000. In the Phx Metro area, there are 2x as many Chevy dealerships as Ford........... and there sure as hell is not close to 2x as many Chevys on the road as Fords (actual sales numbers are probably close to equal). This is very telling in the advertising here also. In our major paper, the Arizona Republic, full page Chevy, and GM ads in general, take up the majority of the sales paper. Yet, you can hardly find a Ford ad. Actually, I think there are more Dodge and Nissan ads than Ford.

That is a huge difference. Obviously, this dealership network was designed for 40-50% market shares. As the market share keeps shrinking, all the dealerships are still there. Now, you add in incompetant managers who order product (as many have said, they are often older people who are out of touch with the market), and add in "market adjustments" to just about any new product........... and you have a recipe for poor sales.

When sales of large SUV's were booming, I could understand having them on the front row, right at the street (the most valuable real estate). However, with gas over $2.00 a gallon, having these gas guzzlers up there is a waste of valuable space. Front and center should be a row of Cobalts, many of which should be in bright colors (these catch peoples eye, even if they wouldn't buy the bright colors). The manager may argue that they make more money on the SUV's........... but the fact of the matter is, people know that Chevy has SUV's. This isn't any great secret. If they are looking for one, they will stop by a Chevy store.

Just as a point of interest. Toyota dealerships have a rep for being the absolute worst. They consistantly rate near the bottom for dealership experiences. Yet they sell an enormous amount of cars. Maybe the people who go to those dealerships, and are treated like crap, feel like the cars must be really special, for the salespeople to care so little about helping people............ in other words, they sell anyway. I just think it is odd.

guionM

I've been put off of Pontiac dealers since my experience Feb 2004 when I was ready to buy a GTO and was confronted with so many a*ses, that I was just turned off, and decided to wait a while to see the Mustang and what was going to happen with Camaro and Chrysler's coupe project.

At the moment, Pontiac isn't my favorite brand. A list of what I went up against trying to get a GTO at various dealers:
1) Sign a leter of intent to buy.
2) No dealer would let you test drive it.
3) Mark ups ranging from $4000-10,000.
4) No one knowing a damn thing about it.
5) Every single one tried to stear me to another car.

Throw in that fraud of a tagline "We build excitement", when they make cars like that Bonneville I drove, and Pontiac dealers to me are like Kryptonite.

If this was just one or 2 dealers then I'd have no issue. There is a piece of &%$# Ford dealer in San Francisco that I can say fortunately is the only bad experiences (as in plural) I personally had where the dealer was at fault.

Every carmaker has it's moronic dealers, but I get a feeling that good Pontiac dealers like JasonE and his dealership (along with one I found in Tolleson Arizona, by my sister's place) are the exceptions to the rule.

Z284ever

I had a similar Pontiac dealer experience to Guy's. Last fall, I went to a local Pontiac dealer to inquire about purchasing a GTO. The salesperson made it virtually impossible to discuss a deal.

Although they had 10 GTO's languishing on the lot, he refused to let me drive one unless I committed to buy one first...ummm at MSRP.

He asked me which other cars I might be considering. When I answered, maybe Mustang, 300C or CTS....he looked at me like I was an idiot and wasting his time, and responded, " What?? those cars are nothing like a GTO." There wasn't even one aspect of the encounter that this loser handled properly. I even asked to see his manager, but was told he wasn't available...eventhough I was the only prospective customer in the showroom, and there were at least a half dozen sales staff milling around.

All in all, I found that experience so aggravating and time wasting, that it has pretty much put me off buying a GTO. Too bad, if that idiot salesperson's brain, merely had two functioning neurons, held together by a spirochete...he could have put me into one of the 10 GTO's he had.

90 Z28SS

Man , thats to bad you guys had a experience like that . The local no-bull dealers approach for me , was you absolutely have to drive one . We didnt even talk about a deal until I spent a few hours in one . After an experience like that amd after my moms experience buying her new grand am gt , my standards are pretty high now when Im car shopping .