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How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Old Jul 2, 2005 | 08:00 AM
  #46  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Originally Posted by dream '94 Z28
Now I'm especially impressed with what Lotus did with the suspension in '88.
Lotus didn't touch the Fiero. It as all GM.
Old Jul 3, 2005 | 11:00 AM
  #47  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Drop a V8 in Kappa and find a tranny/rear diff combination that can handle the torque.
Old Jul 3, 2005 | 11:32 AM
  #48  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Lotus didn't touch the Fiero. It as all GM.

http://users.netrover.com/~mndwgz/FieroBabe/1988.html

Lotus was a GM subsidiary back then. They designed the LT-5 also.
Old Jul 3, 2005 | 11:57 AM
  #49  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Cheapest RWD chassis possible?

Easy.

Once Zeta production starts at Holden's Fisherman's Bend plant, import the whole LWB LHD version of the V-chassis stampings and tooling over (fuel tank is safely under the rear seat, unlike the aft of axle location of the Monaro-Commodore).

Set it up in the unused portion of the Wilmington Delaware plant.

Instant Larger-Than-Impala full size cars and even an El Camino to boot.

Optional: Reskin and/or redo interior.


Extra Credit:
GM has a history of streaching F-body's cost over extremely long periods (the cost to design the 3rd gen's seemingly Vega based chassis is 19 years! ). If GM continued this, then one could come up with a chassis based on the Sigma or even the new Zeta. However, it would have to be able to be assembled on a line with an existing car, unless someone desired to see the F-body's demise yet again when the market sours.
Old Jul 3, 2005 | 12:25 PM
  #50  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Originally Posted by guionM
Cheapest RWD chassis possible?

Easy.

Once Zeta production starts at Holden's Fisherman's Bend plant, import the whole LWB LHD version of the V-chassis stampings and tooling over (fuel tank is safely under the rear seat, unlike the aft of axle location of the Monaro-Commodore).

Set it up in the unused portion of the Wilmington Delaware plant.

Instant Larger-Than-Impala full size cars and even an El Camino to boot.

Optional: Reskin and/or redo interior.
I bet Holden will be producing versions of the current VZ, alongside VE, until the end of the decade.


Extra Credit:
GM has a history of streaching F-body's cost over extremely long periods (the cost to design the 3rd gen's seemingly Vega based chassis is 19 years! ). If GM continued this, then one could come up with a chassis based on the Sigma or even the new Zeta. However, it would have to be able to be assembled on a line with an existing car, unless someone desired to see the F-body's demise yet again when the market sours.
I think the ability to be assembled with other cars (even if they are different), is critical.

Let's face it, the 4th gen was pretty cheap. It's basic architecture went back to 1982. It's rear suspension dates back to a mid-70's H-body. It's rear diff comes from an $11,000 light truck. The bean counters were probably slapping each other on the back over it.

Unfortunately, as we know....although the pieces were cheap....how it was assembled, (ie., dedicating a plant exclusively for it), made it very expensive.
Old Jul 3, 2005 | 12:40 PM
  #51  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Originally Posted by Z284ever
I bet Holden will be producing versions of the current VZ, alongside VE, until the end of the decade.
You've been talking to Holden, haven't you?

Ute won't be changed till decade's end, and Monaro has at least a year's extention, possibly more. Zeta will likely be the mid-grade and above Holden line. It's possible a low cost Commodore version will continue.


I think the ability to be assembled with other cars (even if they are different), is critical.
I'd say it's a given.

Let's face it, the 4th gen was pretty cheap. It's basic architecture went back to 1982. It's rear suspension dates back to a mid-70's H-body. It's rear diff comes from an $11,000 light truck. The bean counters were probably slapping each other on the back over it.
The 3rd gen was pretty cheap. The 4th gen was akin to robbing a bank! Think about it. Not only were we taliking about a chassis that had a jump off point of a '72 Vega (the mid 70s Monza cars were essentially restyled Vegas with high drivetrain humps), not only are we talking about a chassis that was an updated version of the 3rd gen (which ran 10 years!), we are also talking about essentially a free plant, a free loan, and a workforce looking at being layed off and a closed plant!

3rd gen. Pretty cheap.
4th gen. Steal is too nice a word.

Unfortunately, as we know....although the pieces were cheap....how it was assembled, (ie., dedicating a plant exclusively for it), made it very expensive.
How very true.
How very ironic.
Old Jul 3, 2005 | 02:14 PM
  #52  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Originally Posted by Z284ever
http://users.netrover.com/~mndwgz/FieroBabe/1988.html

Lotus was a GM subsidiary back then. They designed the LT-5 also.
http://www.fierosails.com/decal.html

And yes, we know it's a myth that Lotus designed any of the Fiero suspension systems, but let's keep the myth going among the uninitiated!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Fiero

The 1988 Fiero brought a new suspension design, thought by many to strikingly resemble the soon to be acquired Lotus Corp's. The chassis was never a Lotus design though - it was all Pontiac.
Urban legend material. Lotus never touched the fiero.

Actually the LT5 was a part Mercury part Lotus engine with very little imput from the General. The reason Lotus was brought in was it's DOHC experience.

GM bought Lotus in 1986 and sold Lotus in 1993. There was not enough time for a Lotus designed suspension to go through the GM system, just as slow then as it is now. The "1990 GTA Fiero" concept that has been shown in both red and black is actually a 1985 model and uses a 1988 suspension and power steering system which was developed but never used.
Old Jul 4, 2005 | 11:15 PM
  #53  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Some points to cover:

LT5: The engine was designed and developed by GM Group Lotus Division in England and Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group (C-P-C).
Mercury Marine got the contract to manufacture and assemble the LT5. The LT5 engines were manufactured and hand assembled in Stillwater, OK and then shipped to Bowling Green, KY

Fiero: Another case of GM fixing a car and making it very worthy and then killing it before it had a chance. I think the '88 GTs still look pretty sweet today, I guy down the street has yellow '88 GT that in very good condition. He put some modern larger aftermarket wheels on it with lower profile performance tires and it looks very sharp.
Old Jul 5, 2005 | 08:54 AM
  #54  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

I like the Nomad idea. It irritates me to no end that I have to drive a gas-guzzling barn door 300* days of the year to be able to tow a 5,000 pound trailer half a dozen times a year.

*assuming the weather co-operates and I can drive a Camaro the other 65.
Old Jul 5, 2005 | 09:46 PM
  #55  
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Re: How do you build the cheapest RWD car possible?

Originally Posted by Z284ever
Fiero had some humble, cobbled up beginnings. It had to be sold to management as an economical "commuter car" rather than a sports car. A 2 seat sports car had way too many political connotations for GM back then, ie., Corvette competitor at a fraction of the price.
Charlie, you are right on this. The vastly improved 1988 fiero formula/gt had vented disc brakes, totally new front and rear suspension and rear sway bar. This was actually proposed for the 1984 car but cut to reduce costs. Pontiac spent about $1,000 per car on the upgrades. The fiero cancellation was total BS- the plant made money every year. I shake my head when I hear them say today they cant make a small car profitably. The key is to build something stylish that people want, on the right platform (spaceframe with plastic panels).

The fiero spaceframe is still considered state of the art today-proven by the fact that the c6 corvette is built on a similarly designed spaceframe(improved with hydroformed frame rails). To this day though the Corvette is still protected like the bald eagle. Look at what 2 seater pontiac has now, a 4 cylinder. Really fits Pontiac's performance image.

Red, when I saw this thread, that was the the car I thought of as well.
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