The House abandons the tougher of the new fuel economy rules
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 669
From: Arcadia, OK
A person who lives 50 miles away from work shouldn't need to ask how to reduce their consumption of gas, should they? 
In all seriousness, you have every right to live wherever you want, but that freedom privilege comes at a greater expense to you. Speaking of privileges, cheap gas was a privilege....never a right....
So while I fully agree with your opinions of "big government" (I tend to lean right myself) I don't really feel this is a political issue. Cutting back on fuel is good for the overall health and safety of this country.
In all seriousness, you have every right to live wherever you want, but that freedom privilege comes at a greater expense to you. Speaking of privileges, cheap gas was a privilege....never a right....
So while I fully agree with your opinions of "big government" (I tend to lean right myself) I don't really feel this is a political issue. Cutting back on fuel is good for the overall health and safety of this country.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 167
From: Pittsburgh, PA
BS, huh? When was the last time we built a refineray in the USA? How many different formulations of gas do we have which decreases supply and raise prices? Why can't we DRILL in ANWAR? Why can't we drill in the North Shale deposits, where it is estimated that there are over 1 TRILLION barrels of oil, more than all of the KNOW reserves? Why can't wee drill off of the Gulf Coast, where China is now drilling taking our oil? Tell me what ideological FACTION blocks all of this, LIBERALS.
Waht the hell good would raising gas tax do? Spend more on benevolence as James Madison said is not what the governemnt should do with TAX dollars!
Waht the hell good would raising gas tax do? Spend more on benevolence as James Madison said is not what the governemnt should do with TAX dollars!
Save the assinine and complete BS of this "conservative vs liberal" retoric that you guys who have nothing else to say reach for whenever something goes in a way you have no other explanation for.
Fuel prices go up and line the pockets of a company or corperation makes record profits, you guys sit there like a damn bump on a log and don't say a damn thing... yet when someone mentions taking that money and actually doing some good, all of a sudden you start hearing this same old, tired, and played out "Liberal" this and "Liberal That" BS.
We pay more for gas becasue of a supply problem. The people who don't see this as a Liberal vs. conservative issue are the morons, not retards.
So the government , while coercely taking my money will provide more benefits than a private company?
Reduce our dependence on forieng oil by DRILLING FOR OIL in AMERICA, not by raising taxes.
You're paying more for fuel for 2 reasons.
1. The value of the US dollar has dropped like a ton of bricks because we're selling out to China (BTW: Last time I checked, this was mostly done under a administration and congress under the same party... and it wasn't "conservative").
2. Oil companies are using just about any pretext to raise prices and keep them there.
This continued so-called Liberal vs Conservative BS has got to stop sometime. While we still have retards who still see things as right vs left, the entire US is being sold out by people who see nothing but green and their own self intrest. If I wanted to rob you blind, I'd divert your attention and steal your money. Guess what's really happening bud.
Better wake up there Aron to the real world and what's really going on around you before one day you realize that China controls US foreign policy, US economic decisions, and [b]your[b] life & well being because you were too busy bashing other Americans using rhetoric that hasn't had any grounding in reality since the 1980s.
Divide and Conquer is a very successful strategy, and has worked well throughout history in taking over countries far better than any military campaign ever has.
Your money is lining someone else's pockets. It's your choice if you want it to be the government where at least you get some benefit, or some company that will be glad to take it, and send you back out calling everyone else names.
If you have an idea to help things out, reduce our dependence on oil, and keeps us from sending MORE MONEY TO COUNTRIES THAT JUST AS SOON SEE THE US FALL that doesn't include taxes, we're all ears.
On the other hand, if your solution is simply to sit around and continue to pump OUR money into Iran, Vensuela, and other countries that to a large degree hate the US, then perhaps you should reevaluate who is actually doing something to help the US and who isn't.
Fuel prices go up and line the pockets of a company or corperation makes record profits, you guys sit there like a damn bump on a log and don't say a damn thing... yet when someone mentions taking that money and actually doing some good, all of a sudden you start hearing this same old, tired, and played out "Liberal" this and "Liberal That" BS.
We pay more for gas becasue of a supply problem. The people who don't see this as a Liberal vs. conservative issue are the morons, not retards.
So the government , while coercely taking my money will provide more benefits than a private company?
Reduce our dependence on forieng oil by DRILLING FOR OIL in AMERICA, not by raising taxes.
You're paying more for fuel for 2 reasons.
1. The value of the US dollar has dropped like a ton of bricks because we're selling out to China (BTW: Last time I checked, this was mostly done under a administration and congress under the same party... and it wasn't "conservative").
2. Oil companies are using just about any pretext to raise prices and keep them there.
This continued so-called Liberal vs Conservative BS has got to stop sometime. While we still have retards who still see things as right vs left, the entire US is being sold out by people who see nothing but green and their own self intrest. If I wanted to rob you blind, I'd divert your attention and steal your money. Guess what's really happening bud.
Better wake up there Aron to the real world and what's really going on around you before one day you realize that China controls US foreign policy, US economic decisions, and [b]your[b] life & well being because you were too busy bashing other Americans using rhetoric that hasn't had any grounding in reality since the 1980s.
Divide and Conquer is a very successful strategy, and has worked well throughout history in taking over countries far better than any military campaign ever has.
Your money is lining someone else's pockets. It's your choice if you want it to be the government where at least you get some benefit, or some company that will be glad to take it, and send you back out calling everyone else names.
If you have an idea to help things out, reduce our dependence on oil, and keeps us from sending MORE MONEY TO COUNTRIES THAT JUST AS SOON SEE THE US FALL that doesn't include taxes, we're all ears.
On the other hand, if your solution is simply to sit around and continue to pump OUR money into Iran, Vensuela, and other countries that to a large degree hate the US, then perhaps you should reevaluate who is actually doing something to help the US and who isn't.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 167
From: Pittsburgh, PA
BS, huh? When was the last time we built a refineray in the USA? How many different formulations of gas do we have which decreases supply and raise prices? Why can't we DRILL in ANWAR? Why can't we drill in the North Shale deposits, where it is estimated that there are over 1 TRILLION barrels of oil, more than all of the KNOW reserves? Why can't wee drill off of the Gulf Coast, where China is now drilling taking our oil? Tell me what ideological FACTION blocks all of this, LIBERALS.
Waht the hell good would raising gas tax do? Spend more on benevolence as James Madison said is not what the governemnt should do with TAX dollars!
We pay more for gas becasue of a supply problem. The people who don't see this as a Liberal vs. conservative issue are the morons, not retards.
So the government , while coercely taking my money will provide more benefits than a private company?
Reduce our dependence on forieng oil by DRILLING FOR OIL in AMERICA, not by raising taxes.
Waht the hell good would raising gas tax do? Spend more on benevolence as James Madison said is not what the governemnt should do with TAX dollars!
We pay more for gas becasue of a supply problem. The people who don't see this as a Liberal vs. conservative issue are the morons, not retards.
So the government , while coercely taking my money will provide more benefits than a private company?
Reduce our dependence on forieng oil by DRILLING FOR OIL in AMERICA, not by raising taxes.
Save the assinine and complete BS of this "conservative vs liberal" retoric that you guys who have nothing else to say reach for whenever something goes in a way you have no other explanation for.
Fuel prices go up and line the pockets of a company or corperation makes record profits, you guys sit there like a damn bump on a log and don't say a damn thing... yet when someone mentions taking that money and actually doing some good, all of a sudden you start hearing this same old, tired, and played out "Liberal" this and "Liberal That" BS.
We pay more for gas becasue of a supply problem. The people who don't see this as a Liberal vs. conservative issue are the morons, not retards.
So the government , while coercely taking my money will provide more benefits than a private company?
Reduce our dependence on forieng oil by DRILLING FOR OIL in AMERICA, not by raising taxes.
You're paying more for fuel for 2 reasons.
1. The value of the US dollar has dropped like a ton of bricks because we're selling out to China (BTW: Last time I checked, this was mostly done under a administration and congress under the same party... and it wasn't "conservative").
2. Oil companies are using just about any pretext to raise prices and keep them there.
This continued so-called Liberal vs Conservative BS has got to stop sometime. While we still have retards who still see things as right vs left, the entire US is being sold out by people who see nothing but green and their own self intrest. If I wanted to rob you blind, I'd divert your attention and steal your money. Guess what's really happening bud.
Better wake up there Aron to the real world and what's really going on around you before one day you realize that China controls US foreign policy, US economic decisions, and [b]your[b] life & well being because you were too busy bashing other Americans using rhetoric that hasn't had any grounding in reality since the 1980s.
Divide and Conquer is a very successful strategy, and has worked well throughout history in taking over countries far better than any military campaign ever has.
Your money is lining someone else's pockets. It's your choice if you want it to be the government where at least you get some benefit, or some company that will be glad to take it, and send you back out calling everyone else names.
If you have an idea to help things out, reduce our dependence on oil, and keeps us from sending MORE MONEY TO COUNTRIES THAT JUST AS SOON SEE THE US FALL that doesn't include taxes, we're all ears.
On the other hand, if your solution is simply to sit around and continue to pump OUR money into Iran, Vensuela, and other countries that to a large degree hate the US, then perhaps you should reevaluate who is actually doing something to help the US and who isn't.
Fuel prices go up and line the pockets of a company or corperation makes record profits, you guys sit there like a damn bump on a log and don't say a damn thing... yet when someone mentions taking that money and actually doing some good, all of a sudden you start hearing this same old, tired, and played out "Liberal" this and "Liberal That" BS.
We pay more for gas becasue of a supply problem. The people who don't see this as a Liberal vs. conservative issue are the morons, not retards.
So the government , while coercely taking my money will provide more benefits than a private company?
Reduce our dependence on forieng oil by DRILLING FOR OIL in AMERICA, not by raising taxes.
You're paying more for fuel for 2 reasons.
1. The value of the US dollar has dropped like a ton of bricks because we're selling out to China (BTW: Last time I checked, this was mostly done under a administration and congress under the same party... and it wasn't "conservative").
2. Oil companies are using just about any pretext to raise prices and keep them there.
This continued so-called Liberal vs Conservative BS has got to stop sometime. While we still have retards who still see things as right vs left, the entire US is being sold out by people who see nothing but green and their own self intrest. If I wanted to rob you blind, I'd divert your attention and steal your money. Guess what's really happening bud.
Better wake up there Aron to the real world and what's really going on around you before one day you realize that China controls US foreign policy, US economic decisions, and [b]your[b] life & well being because you were too busy bashing other Americans using rhetoric that hasn't had any grounding in reality since the 1980s.
Divide and Conquer is a very successful strategy, and has worked well throughout history in taking over countries far better than any military campaign ever has.
Your money is lining someone else's pockets. It's your choice if you want it to be the government where at least you get some benefit, or some company that will be glad to take it, and send you back out calling everyone else names.
If you have an idea to help things out, reduce our dependence on oil, and keeps us from sending MORE MONEY TO COUNTRIES THAT JUST AS SOON SEE THE US FALL that doesn't include taxes, we're all ears.
On the other hand, if your solution is simply to sit around and continue to pump OUR money into Iran, Vensuela, and other countries that to a large degree hate the US, then perhaps you should reevaluate who is actually doing something to help the US and who isn't.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
1970s.
Probally at least a dozen. Even conservative Georga has it's own formula.
Because it's a wildlife reserve. In 2003 the Republican controled senate voted against allowing oil drilling there.
Getting oil from shale is an extensive process that involves essentially strip mining and taking the shale rocks, crushing them, and heating them to a point oil can be extracted. Another method is drilling, injecting extreme heat into the ground to extract the nearby oil trapped in shale rocks. Needless to say, you need to do a whole lot of drilling, sinking a new hole when the oil in that immediate area is gone and you need to inject heat into a adjacent area, eventially drilling hundreds if not thousands of wells. I'm sure you see the concern....You don't simply "drill" and pump up shale oil.
Because while we have this retarded policy of not dealing with Cuba (note that we deal with Vietnam where we lost 55,000 lives, we deal with and open factories with China which is still unapologetically communist). While we are scared of upsetting the Cuban comunity in Florida by not dealing with Castro, the Chinese went in and made deals with Castro to explore and tap into any potential oil supplies off the coast of Cuba.
Conservatives favor the continued embargo against Cuba.
If you have a list of liberals who singlehandedly are doing all this, then post them here instead of being someone's sockpuppet.
The issues you speak of you know only what you might have heard off of some talk radio show.... which by the way, if you were to look into the lives of many of them, you'd likely find that they say things to keep ratings up than to reflect what they actually believe or practice in their personal life.
Fix bridges in Minnesota for starters.
No. I'm not going to use catchphrases or quote dead presidents who have nothing to do with the current oil supply issue, but I'll try to put it in simple terms so you can follow along:
1. Oil is paid for in US dollars.
2. The Value of US dollars has dropped tremendously against other countries money.
3. When our dollar value drops, it takes more to buy stuff from other countries.
4. Imported oil comes from other countries.
5. While everyone else is paying roughly the same for oil as they did the last couple of years, our cost for oil has skyrocketed.
Sure, I'll give you that refineries is also a problem. But oil right now is trading for about $70 per barrel. It was $20 in 1999.
You're right. Retards don't know any better.
Depends.... Do you use water in your house? Does your car drive on a road? Do you buy your regulated food from a grocery store or do you go out and eat roadkill? Have you ever flown a plane that didn't smash into another one? Ever go to a Library? Ever use a city bus? What company is supplying security in your city? Does your kid go to school? Does you kid eat lunch at school? Ever see a private company put out a house fire? Do you have a sewage system or do you simply go on the side of your house? Does your garbage get picked up? Does your kid get immunity shots or do people use bio protection suits when around them?
I can't think of too many companies that offer more benefits than that... and I'm just getting started.
I would bring up the figures as to how much oil we use and how many countries we depend on to keep ourselves supplied (I've done it on another thread) and challenge you some more, but I somehow feel like I'm shooting fish in a barrel or clubbing a baby seal. Not very sporting. 
BTW: I see you're from Pittsburgh. I'm from Monroeville, so believe it or not, I'm cutting you a big break.
How many different formulations of gas do we have which decreases supply and raise prices?
Why can't we DRILL in ANWAR?
Why can't we drill in the North Shale deposits, where it is estimated that there are over 1 TRILLION barrels of oil, more than all of the KNOW reserves?
Why can't wee drill off of the Gulf Coast, where China is now drilling taking our oil?
Tell me what ideological FACTION blocks all of this, LIBERALS.
If you have a list of liberals who singlehandedly are doing all this, then post them here instead of being someone's sockpuppet.
The issues you speak of you know only what you might have heard off of some talk radio show.... which by the way, if you were to look into the lives of many of them, you'd likely find that they say things to keep ratings up than to reflect what they actually believe or practice in their personal life.
Waht the hell good would raising gas tax do? Spend more on benevolence as James Madison said is not what the governemnt should do with TAX dollars!
We pay more for gas becasue of a supply problem.
1. Oil is paid for in US dollars.
2. The Value of US dollars has dropped tremendously against other countries money.
3. When our dollar value drops, it takes more to buy stuff from other countries.
4. Imported oil comes from other countries.
5. While everyone else is paying roughly the same for oil as they did the last couple of years, our cost for oil has skyrocketed.
Sure, I'll give you that refineries is also a problem. But oil right now is trading for about $70 per barrel. It was $20 in 1999.
The people who don't see this as a Liberal vs. conservative issue are the morons, not retards.
So the government , while coercely taking my money will provide more benefits than a private company?
I can't think of too many companies that offer more benefits than that... and I'm just getting started.
Reduce our dependence on forieng oil by DRILLING FOR OIL in AMERICA, not by raising taxes.
BTW: I see you're from Pittsburgh. I'm from Monroeville, so believe it or not, I'm cutting you a big break.
Last edited by guionM; Aug 2, 2007 at 08:07 PM.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 167
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Conservatives favor the continued embargo against Cuba.
If you have a list of liberals who singlehandedly are doing all this, then post them here instead of being someone's sockpuppet.
The issues you speak of you know only what you might have heard off of some talk radio show.... which by the way, if you were to look into the lives of many of them, you'd likely find that they say things to keep ratings up than to reflect what they actually believe or practice in their personal life.
If you have a list of liberals who singlehandedly are doing all this, then post them here instead of being someone's sockpuppet.
The issues you speak of you know only what you might have heard off of some talk radio show.... which by the way, if you were to look into the lives of many of them, you'd likely find that they say things to keep ratings up than to reflect what they actually believe or practice in their personal life.
I know, I get all my inof from talk radio and you get your inof from where? From your own mind becasue you are just that smart, right? Sockpuppet? Coming from someone who is making such inane comments about voting records, right!!
Fix bridges in Minnesota for starters.
Because it's a wildlife reserve. In 2003 the Republican controled senate voted against allowing oil drilling there
No. I'm not going to use catchphrases or quote dead presidents who have nothing to do with the current oil supply issue, but I'll try to put it in simple terms so you can follow along:
1. Oil is paid for in US dollars.
2. The Value of US dollars has dropped tremendously against other countries money.
3. When our dollar value drops, it takes more to buy stuff from other countries.
4. Imported oil comes from other countries.
5. While everyone else is paying roughly the same for oil as they did the last couple of years, our cost for oil has skyrocketed.
Sure, I'll give you that refineries is also a problem. But oil right now is trading for about $70 per barrel. It was $20 in 1999
1. Oil is paid for in US dollars.
2. The Value of US dollars has dropped tremendously against other countries money.
3. When our dollar value drops, it takes more to buy stuff from other countries.
4. Imported oil comes from other countries.
5. While everyone else is paying roughly the same for oil as they did the last couple of years, our cost for oil has skyrocketed.
Sure, I'll give you that refineries is also a problem. But oil right now is trading for about $70 per barrel. It was $20 in 1999
1. Really, did not know that. Explain that in more detail so I can follow along, your almightyness.
2, 3. True but so what? Does not deal witht hat fact that we need more refinery capacity and need to drill for more oil.
4. Imported oil comes from ohter countries, really. Explain this in more detail. having trouble following along.
5. exactly why we need more refineries and to drill for Domestic oil.
You're right. Retards don't know any better.
Depends.... Do you use water in your house? Does your car drive on a road? Do you buy your regulated food from a grocery store or do you go out and eat roadkill? Have you ever flown a plane that didn't smash into another one? Ever go to a Library? Ever use a city bus? What company is supplying security in your city? Does your kid go to school? Does you kid eat lunch at school? Ever see a private company put out a house fire? Do you have a sewage system or do you simply go on the side of your house? Does your garbage get picked up? Does your kid get immunity shots or do people use bio protection suits when around them?
I can't think of too many companies that offer more benefits than that... and I'm just getting started
I can't think of too many companies that offer more benefits than that... and I'm just getting started
I did not know that the government built palnes and ran airports, new one to me.
Did you ever see the governemnt put out a fire? No it is people who work for their municipalities that put out fires.
Who picks up my garbage? Not the government.
The goverenemnt invented immunity shots, your right.
the governemtn does not do anyting DIRECTLY, it is the PRIVATE sector that gets the job done.
I would bring up the figures as to how much oil we use and how many countries we depend on to keep ourselves supplied (I've done it on another thread) and challenge you some more, but I somehow feel like I'm shooting fish in a barrel or clubbing a baby seal. Not very sporting.
BTW: I see you're from Pittsburgh. I'm from Monroeville, so believe it or not, I'm cutting you a big break
BTW: I see you're from Pittsburgh. I'm from Monroeville, so believe it or not, I'm cutting you a big break
Again we need to drill for Domestic oil and need more refinery capacity and we need to stop having al these different formulations of gas. This wil bring prices down. Tax gas more so the working "poor" as you Lib's like to say will have to use more DI to purchase gas. Good suggestion.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Really. This country is still operating with a 1970s transportation system in the 2000s. Actual gas tax collections as a % of price are ridiculously low when compared to the era when the Interstate system was built. Either the gas tax goes up, or it's a moot point because you won't have any roads to drive on that aren't crumbling and congested 24/7.
Suaveat69 -- invest in a spell checker please.
Suaveat69 -- invest in a spell checker please.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
I agree with guy for the most part.
Other thoughts... the Gulf for the most part is more natural gas rich than crude rich as far as I know, so drilling isn't going to get you a lot of gasoline anyway. Likewise kneejerk destruction of our wildlife reserves isn't likely going to yield enough oil to magically make gasoline $1/gal again, or substantially decrease our dependence either.
Likewise shale oil isn't economical right now at current technology level and price of other oils. Eventually one or the other factors will change that.
The companies that own the refineries don't want to build any new ones anyway. It doesn't make a lot of sense to invest the money to increase capacity if all you end up with is increased revenue but decreased margins and profits.
Gas tax would eventually cut down on some demand. it wouldn't cut down on my personal demand until I absolutely couldn't afford to waste a drop of gas (it may cut down my demand of other goods and services I don't necessarily need though if I run out of money spending it on gas). Then again if the goal is to reduce consumption there is no reason not to increase it and make it another 'sin tax'. (I would rather have tax brackets on new car purchases based solely on economy than CAFE or increased gas taxes however. And no relaxed standards for trucks and SUVs).
The whole "the government has no right to steal my money" rhetoric is complete nonsense. If you don't want to pay the government then move to a country with less taxes. Don't complain if you find that life in that country isn't as good as it was here.
Other thoughts... the Gulf for the most part is more natural gas rich than crude rich as far as I know, so drilling isn't going to get you a lot of gasoline anyway. Likewise kneejerk destruction of our wildlife reserves isn't likely going to yield enough oil to magically make gasoline $1/gal again, or substantially decrease our dependence either.
Likewise shale oil isn't economical right now at current technology level and price of other oils. Eventually one or the other factors will change that.
The companies that own the refineries don't want to build any new ones anyway. It doesn't make a lot of sense to invest the money to increase capacity if all you end up with is increased revenue but decreased margins and profits.
Gas tax would eventually cut down on some demand. it wouldn't cut down on my personal demand until I absolutely couldn't afford to waste a drop of gas (it may cut down my demand of other goods and services I don't necessarily need though if I run out of money spending it on gas
). Then again if the goal is to reduce consumption there is no reason not to increase it and make it another 'sin tax'. (I would rather have tax brackets on new car purchases based solely on economy than CAFE or increased gas taxes however. And no relaxed standards for trucks and SUVs).The whole "the government has no right to steal my money" rhetoric is complete nonsense. If you don't want to pay the government then move to a country with less taxes. Don't complain if you find that life in that country isn't as good as it was here.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Wow, post #20 wasn't on my page when I typed my response since I had stepped away for a bit.
Suaveat69, your post is pretty out there. For starters, the father of our constitution is James Madison. Here is a James Madison quote
Otherwise the government obviously doesn't run the bread store, but clearly all of the products in the store are subject to regulations that improve your quality of life by assuring you aren't ingesting toxic food.
The government makes sure the planes are safe to fly in.
Immunizations are government mandated for public health. It improves the quality of life in the country.
The private sector wouldn't do half of these things as there wouldn't necessarily be an economic benefit of doing so. The whole 'invisible hand' total free market theory hasn't been fashionable since the 19th century.
The firefighters that are part of the 'municipality' are part of local government.
Suaveat69, your post is pretty out there. For starters, the father of our constitution is James Madison. Here is a James Madison quote
Originally Posted by James Madison
"The power of taxing people and their property is essential to the very existence of government.''
The government makes sure the planes are safe to fly in.
Immunizations are government mandated for public health. It improves the quality of life in the country.
The private sector wouldn't do half of these things as there wouldn't necessarily be an economic benefit of doing so. The whole 'invisible hand' total free market theory hasn't been fashionable since the 19th century.
The firefighters that are part of the 'municipality' are part of local government.
Last edited by HAZ-Matt; Aug 2, 2007 at 09:57 PM.
Registered User
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 167
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Gas tax would eventually cut down on some demand. it wouldn't cut down on my personal demand until I absolutely couldn't afford to waste a drop of gas (it may cut down my demand of other goods and services I don't necessarily need though if I run out of money spending it on gas ). Then again if the goal is to reduce consumption there is no reason not to increase it and make it another 'sin tax'. (I would rather have tax brackets on new car purchases based solely on economy than CAFE or increased gas taxes however. And no relaxed standards for trucks and SUVs).
For the life of me I cannot see how ANYONE would want to pay more of their hard earned money to the goverenment for what???
The whole "the government has no right to steal my money" rhetoric is complete nonsense. If you don't want to pay the government then move to a country with less taxes. Don't complain if you find that life in that country isn't as good as it was here.
Otherwise the government obviously doesn't run the bread store, but clearly all of the products in the store are subject to regulations that improve your quality of life by assuring you aren't ingesting toxic food
Suaveat69, your post is pretty out there. For starters, the father of our constitution is James Madison. Here is a James Madison quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Madison
"The power of taxing people and their property is essential to the very existence of government.''
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Madison
"The power of taxing people and their property is essential to the very existence of government.''
In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief for French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo (now Haiti) to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison said disapprovingly, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
Today, at least two-thirds of a $2.5 trillion federal budget is spent on "objects of benevolence." That includes Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, aid to higher education, farm and business subsidies, welfare, etc., ad nauseam.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,650
From: Indianapolis, IN
You can make your valid points without talking down to the guy like he's lucky to be on the same forum you frequent. 
Personally, I'm for a tax over CAFE, BUT said tax would need to be basically a zero/neutral revenue tax.
Csaba Csere talks about it some in his Aug 2001 column.
Oh, and to add more gas (heh) to the anti-CAFE fire, check out his June, 2007 column.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 753
From: Annapolis Md. USA
Any time the price of gas goes up, prices for just about everything goes up. It is not smart to tax more on something (Gas) that directly effects the economy more than most any other type of tax out there. To tax gas for reasons of making people use less, I just don't get it. I feel the opposite. Give tax BREAKS for those who find efficient ways on gasoline.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
Increasing CAFE requirements probably won't decrease oil consumption. The number of miles driven per year will probably continue to increase, offsetting the new CAFE requirements.
Putting additional tax on fuel also probably won't decrease oil consumption. People will still continue to use the same amount of fuel. The only way this would work is if the tax revenue is then used to decrease congestion and increase the availability of public transportation. However, this probably won't happen anyway, since it has negative political consequences.
The real issue is that oil as an energy source is a monopoly. Currently, there is no cheaper, easier source to power everything. Come up with an equivalent to Back to the Future's "Mr. Fusion", and oil consumption will be drastically reduced.
Putting additional tax on fuel also probably won't decrease oil consumption. People will still continue to use the same amount of fuel. The only way this would work is if the tax revenue is then used to decrease congestion and increase the availability of public transportation. However, this probably won't happen anyway, since it has negative political consequences.
The real issue is that oil as an energy source is a monopoly. Currently, there is no cheaper, easier source to power everything. Come up with an equivalent to Back to the Future's "Mr. Fusion", and oil consumption will be drastically reduced.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 162
From: St. Louis, MO
Spare us the assinine and complete BS of this "conservative vs liberal"
We're paying more for fuel for 2 reasons.
1. The value of the US dollar has dropped like a ton of bricks
1. The value of the US dollar has dropped like a ton of bricks
1. Oil is paid for in US dollars.
2. The Value of US dollars has dropped tremendously against other countries money
2. The Value of US dollars has dropped tremendously against other countries money
A person who lives 50 miles away from work shouldn't need to ask how to reduce their consumption of gas, should they?
I was born out in the country and thats where I live. Should we all migrate to the city?
Depends.... Do you use water in your house?
Does your car drive on a road?
Do you buy your regulated food from a grocery store or do you go out and eat roadkill?
But of course I also buy food from a private coporation.
Ever use a city bus?
What company is supplying security in your city?
Does your kid go to school?
Ever see a private company put out a house fire?
Do you have a sewage system or do you simply go on the side of your house?
Does your garbage get picked up?
You see at one time government didn't babysit everyone. At one time it didn't even collect taxes and yet people still lived fine.
In the 18th century we used a ton of wood for fuel. Today we use gas, tomorrow we will use nuclear or something else.
People have been worried about using up resources since the beginning of time, but we are still here. Life finds a way.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,650
From: Indianapolis, IN
Any time the price of gas goes up, prices for just about everything goes up. It is not smart to tax more on something (Gas) that directly effects the economy more than most any other type of tax out there. To tax gas for reasons of making people use less, I just don't get it. I feel the opposite. Give tax BREAKS for those who find efficient ways on gasoline.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 162
From: St. Louis, MO
You want better gas prices, cut the damn tax. There's ~50 cents cheaper right there.
Or how about this. You want better roads. Give all the current tax to the STATE government and none to the feds.
The state takes 3% of my money and the feds take 25% an yet the state provides me with way more services then the feds. Can you imagine what it could do if it got the kind of money the feds got?
Drill in ANWAR or anywhere else. Sure it's a drop in the bucket, but every little bit helps. Also perception drives crude prices too. The perception we have more stops the investors from bidding it up like we will be out tomorrow.
Keep doing your e85 or hybrids. No reason to stop. Again every little bit helps, but don't force me to buy one by making the alternative to cost restrictive.
Go drill more places in the gulf or ocean. Stupid to limit yourself.
Build more refineries. Get rid of the stupid laws that make it impossible to build one. East St louis is a **** hole. I'll gladly allow you to put one there.
You can't make it anyworse. You'll create jobs and revenue for us in taxes so maybe I can have my better road while you pay for them.
Gas will be cheaper for me since the refinery is right there.
Sure I want some attempt to not make it an ecological diaster, (although the air all blows east
j/k ) but I've seen the old crap put up down by the gulf coast. There's no way you couldn't build something more 'green' with today's modern technology.
OR Make stuff for the company tax free. Give them land. We have tons of crappy land, someone might as well use it. Make it desirable for them by hanging a carrot of no taxes in front of them. The money we loose in those taxes will be made up by the taxes the new employees will pay.
I don't care how much profit an oil company makes. I care what I pay at the pump.
Put limits on the price in the contract in exchange for no taxes or free land.
I don't care if they make %500 profit if I only pay 99 cents at the pump.
Put tariffs on imported gas once it gets over a certain $ per barrel.
Believe me they need to sell to us or they have a supply glut which will drive the price down more. That barrel of oil will magiclly fall under that tariff limit and if it goes over I get my roads paid for again by someone else.
There you go, do all that first, then well talk about CAFE (and how only offering a size 2 will make everyone get skinny.)
Or how about this. You want better roads. Give all the current tax to the STATE government and none to the feds.
The state takes 3% of my money and the feds take 25% an yet the state provides me with way more services then the feds. Can you imagine what it could do if it got the kind of money the feds got?
Drill in ANWAR or anywhere else. Sure it's a drop in the bucket, but every little bit helps. Also perception drives crude prices too. The perception we have more stops the investors from bidding it up like we will be out tomorrow.
Keep doing your e85 or hybrids. No reason to stop. Again every little bit helps, but don't force me to buy one by making the alternative to cost restrictive.
Go drill more places in the gulf or ocean. Stupid to limit yourself.
Build more refineries. Get rid of the stupid laws that make it impossible to build one. East St louis is a **** hole. I'll gladly allow you to put one there.
You can't make it anyworse. You'll create jobs and revenue for us in taxes so maybe I can have my better road while you pay for them.
Gas will be cheaper for me since the refinery is right there.
Sure I want some attempt to not make it an ecological diaster, (although the air all blows east
j/k ) but I've seen the old crap put up down by the gulf coast. There's no way you couldn't build something more 'green' with today's modern technology.OR Make stuff for the company tax free. Give them land. We have tons of crappy land, someone might as well use it. Make it desirable for them by hanging a carrot of no taxes in front of them. The money we loose in those taxes will be made up by the taxes the new employees will pay.
I don't care how much profit an oil company makes. I care what I pay at the pump.
Put limits on the price in the contract in exchange for no taxes or free land.
I don't care if they make %500 profit if I only pay 99 cents at the pump.
Put tariffs on imported gas once it gets over a certain $ per barrel.
Believe me they need to sell to us or they have a supply glut which will drive the price down more. That barrel of oil will magiclly fall under that tariff limit and if it goes over I get my roads paid for again by someone else.
There you go, do all that first, then well talk about CAFE (and how only offering a size 2 will make everyone get skinny.)
Last edited by Aaron91RS; Aug 3, 2007 at 10:26 AM.