The pre 2003 versions of the current body.

The tail lights, the shape of the rear end, and the side body sculpture are all very similar to Camaro, and was done that way on purpose.

If Camaro continued with the 3 box design from the 1st gen instead of the wide lowslung look of the 2nd gen, Cavalier coupe is likely what it would look like today.

 

Can you maybe post a pic, cause I am totally not following you. I can maybe see it with the older, maybe early 90's, cavaliers but Im just not seeing it on the 01.

 

If they did that on purpose, they should all be fired, because not I, and not anyone I know of who know the slightest thing about cars sees no resemblance. The taillights are close, but that be about it.

I'm sorry guionM, I normally agree with you on almost anything, but I think you are quite wrong on this one. Chevrolet could build a 20-23k performance (remember, that term is subjective) with bottom-barrel trim. The problem is, the Camaro is so close to the Corvette performance wise, that GM must artificially keep the price closer to the Vette, than where it should be: 25k and below. I can get a GT for just under 25k, but look at all the crap that comes with it: A/C, power windows, alarm, power seats, floormats, fogs, keyless, ...IMO, if Ford offered a stripper GT (unless there is one already I don't know about) for 21-22k, it would be a great step. No reason why GM couldn't have done the same thing, especially with the rebates and incentives they are crutched to now. As late as 1995, you could get a Z28 for under 18k MSRP. 1996, 19.3k...in 1997 it jumped above 20k. I'd really like to see what it cost to produce a Camaro (in Z trim) at this time. I'm not informed, but would guess that if GM kept prices around the 20-23k range, they would have made less profit per car, but the amount sold would have made up for it, especially in terms of inventory days. I know I would have bought a new one, but in 1998 they were so far out of my price range, I knew I would have to wait a year or more before I could even think about it.

I think most of my ire comes from reading the old HOT ROD where they flogged a Ute SS around SoCal a few years ago. While a Ute SS starts at 25k here now, just less than 2 years ago, it would have been under 20k. Such are variations in the world economies, and exchange rates. The whole ling brought be back to where you could buy a base Camaro for under 14K (1993). Yet in 2002, you could hardly step into a V6 Camaro for under 19k! I guess such are the pitfalls of success in our country, a dollar doesn't buy what it used to. And even there, we are not getting what we rightfully should with the money we spend.

One can use the excuse that everyone else is about the same price, but as demonstrated in the other thread, inflation does not support such inflated prices for any vehicle, much less for a brand that is supposed to. 18k for a 140hp Cavalier LS? I'm sorry, no. Not when I can pay 17k for a 127hp Civic EX that may have 13 less hp, but comes damn near fully loaded and I know I will get more than 6k for three years down the road, and not get three brochures a month from GM asking me to come test drive a Impala (this happened when we bought a brand new S-10, then ten days later asked us to come test-drive a Silverado )

You and I may know more about the industry than most people, but even I don't see the logic. And if I don't, there is a whole lot more who don't either.

Chevy may or may not be the performance value leader (which I don't see that they are, by any means), but in terms of value period, Chevy doesn't hold a candle.

And this is from a lifetime Chevy fan.

 

Everything he said=

 

Umm....what year cavalier are we talking about here? My wife had an 01 till recently and they didnt look at all alike

I think if you had a 98 cavalier Z24, a 98 monte carlo Z34, and a 98 Camaro Z28 next to each other you would see the obvious similarities. It breaks down to small, medium, and large. They are all very similar. If you wanted to you could even put a 96 caprice in there and see styling similarities within that model and the others.

 

Guion:

Not a flame, but are you paid by the automakers to artificially inflate prices and drum up support for the theory that "anything with a V8 should be $35k?"

New cars do NOT average $30k:

http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw219.shtml

The base price of a 1965 Corvette in today's dollars was about $23,500:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...hreadid=120772

Yes, I know cars are more complex, and offer more gimcrackery to convince the average fool to buy them, but I'll still argue that with the advances in processes and technology, Chevrolet should be able to make a performance car with a V8 for under $20k if they wanted to.

And that's a much better position to be in than arguing FOR the status quo!


Cochese:

Hear, hear! I vote for you for GM's chairman!

 

Oh man do I hear that. We traded in my wifes cavalier for a 2002 Mercury Cougar XR. Nice ride but its got more daggum bells and whistles than any car should have. I nearly punched the dash becaue it wouldnt stop hollerin at me to put my seat belt on. What happened to just simple things on the inside that do the job well? Maybe if they focused on the car, and not how flashy they can make the car tell you that you need an oil change, we could get a new camaro for about 24k.

 

It's Cochese!, You can pay $17K for a loaded Honda ES just like you can pay $17K for a loaded Cavalier. But if you want a Accord coupe, you are going to pay about $29,000 ($19,000 starting), which puts Camaro firmly in that territory.

centric, I don't believe that figure for a moment... Average price of a new car at $21,000? Although my $30,000 figure is from NADA, and is based on the sales of all private vehicles (trucks & SUVs make up half of all vehicles sold to the public, so it too is fair game!)

I'm going to post a poll just to see what most people paid for their new car. I'm going to wager the average won't be $21,000.

As for the similarities between Cavalier and Camaro, all I can say is park your Camaro next to one and take a look, especially from the rear. Of course they aren't idntical twins, but you can most definately see the influence. Both have the same flavor, and most definately were designed by the same group. I end up parking next to one at work every now & then. Try it.

Finally, about prices. Of course cars are overpriced today. As was pointed out some time ago, most luxury SUVs clear in excess of $20,000 a pop, and often alot more. Of course a Mustang whose chassis design was started before Carter became President, and a Camaro chassis that was started only a few years later is paid for, and on the surface should be clearing bank for each maker. But there's alot more to it than just that.

But even if automakers could sell Camaros for under $20,000, I am 100% against it simply because I do not want someone who is just learning how to drive jump into a 350+ horsepower rocketsled, and then get on the same street with me, not to mention what it would do to insurence rate and get alot of angry moms protesting against "irresponsible manufactures" selling "too much power to youth. If someone can sue a handgun manufacturer if someone gets shot, suing GM over a $19,000 400hp car is even easier.

Of course there are exceptions, some young people are excellent drivers (to date, I haven't had an at fault accident in over 20 years of driving). But I'll tell you, I had no business with a car like my Z28 at age 20, and at 1/3 cheaper, no doubt I would have bought it.

If kids are wrecking Hondas, and Eclipses today because of a lack of skill & common sense, what do you think is going to happen when you give them something with twice the horsepower?

If someone thinks their world will cave in, their heart will explode, and the sun won't rise if they can't buy a Z28, then simply get a used one you can afford. Problem solved.

 

I guess when it comes down to it, we could go on and on about pros and cons of pricing camaros low or higher. If only there was some way to price a camaro at 25k and guarantee teens couldnt get their hands on it.

...and writing to Senator....

 

So you just proved the point of them being boring cars. if they followed the trends, they would look like everything else. but everything else generally had more personality than say...a caprice classic or a lumina or even the malibu is pretty boring to look at, nothing special styling wise, nothing special under the skin.

to Cochese: Do I remember? No, i wasnt born yet...

 

guionM, I usually think statistics coming from a .gov site are going to be fairly respectable, and those averages seem a lot more realistic.

If the average car price was $30k, then I would assume a good chunk of people would be buying $30K cars, but I can't think of many people I work with who's cars were more than the low-mid 20's. I know someone who just bought a V6 Accord new, and it wasn't anywhere near $29,000. Try more like 24.

The only cars even nearing $30K are your completely loaded/luxury versions of the big full sized cars. An Avalon, a really loaded Maxima, an Acura. Those are not the "average" car, they're the semi-high end car.

Fact of the matter is, GM sells plenty of LS1 V8s in Australia for US$25K, with a lot better build and interior quality from what I've heard. Why don't they do that here? Because people will defend the fact that they're charging $30,000 for a Camaro.

Tell you one thing, if the next Camaro is STARTING at today's $30,000 range...why wouldn't I buy a WRX for $24,000?

Why is it Subaru, which also has the added cost of being an IMPORT, can make an AWD (a bit more complex and expensive than RWD) turbocharged (I imagine turbocharging an engine is a bit more expensive and complex then making a pushrod V8 that is used in TONS of cars, and not just specialty performance cars) car for $24,000 but GM can't seem to come up with a Camaro for anywhere near that?

It seems GM has the attitude that $35K is where to sit on performance cars, and that's great. I wish them luck on that. I'll happily drive right by the Chevy dealer to a manufacturer who isn't trying to scalp me for as much profit margin as they can just because I want to go fast. My insurance company already does that for me.

 

It's off topic, but you can disable the 'beltminder' buzzer. Check the owner's manual. Just make sure you still buckle up.

 

Yeah, earlier ones didn't look so bad. '03s? Were they on crack?? Regardless, for this era, the '03s are VERY dated...quite frankly, in terms of style, so was the F body. Its an attractive car, but far from cutting edge.

All I'm saying is there was a time when nearly everyone liked the style of Chevy. Now who can tell me that now?

 

As you pointed out, most people you know payed well in the 20s for cars. But today more than half of all new vehicle purchases are trucks. Those typically are at or beyond the $30 grand mark. If that's what is making up over half of what people are buying, then it's fair game.

As for exciting cars, anything with a pulse is going to go for a premium. What's America's only extended cab truck to touch $40,000 base price? A $25,000 Silverado SS with badges and a LS1 based Cadillac engine. Even back in 1994, $20,000 LS1 Chevrolet Caprices went for $24,000 for black paint, $50 worth of plastic, and SS labels. At least the upcomming cars are going to be different from the long paid for models we have now.

Australian cars are so cheap because the country is cheaper to live in than here in the US. A good LS1 El Camino type vehicle with a 6 speed sells for about $20,000! At the same time, you can get a good house in Brisbane near the Gold Coast (their version of Miami Beach, Southern California, and a bit of Hawaii) for well UNDER $100,000!! The trade off is that you'd get paid about 1/4 to 1/3 less than you do here, but even that's not bad....vacation time (called Holiday) which is 2 weeks here is typically is 30 days per year there... plus they have more legal Holidays than we do.

But getting back to cars, I probally wouldn't go for the $24,000 WRX sedan over a $32,000 Camaro, and I think you would probally be in the minority if you did. Just look at all the people here who paid that much for a 9 year old stylistically, $25,000 Z28 with a hood scoop and SS badges. I think it's safe to say that with IRS, an LS2 engine, updated styling and chassis, and better quality build, with an amout of excitement thrown in there.

If Camaro buyers have shown anything, it's that they will pay for loaded top of the line cars. Base Z28s aparently were the worse selling Camaros.

 

I'd say that you're right.

I wonder how the Z/28 would have sold as a focused high perf niche model....rather than the base Camaro V8?