An interesting read...

http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news8/

Being the chairman of the "Just say NO to retro!" foundation... I found this interesting...

I am a huge fan of the CTS, and the XLR and Cadillac's "Arts & Sciences" design theme....

This shows you can make a nod to your past, yet still be creative and new... I am glad to see this line of thought spelled out by GM designers!

 

THANK GOD! Ford seems to be taking every one of its passenger cars on the retro route and we don't need that nonsense at GM, especially when the fad dies out.

 

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do believe that I am part of the "Just Say No to Retro" Foundation (JSNR)

 

CTS being the unexpected surprise hit of 02, GM needs a lot more of this type of fresh "tabula rasa" thinking for its whole line. The new Malibu is destined to be a hit. RWD should be made a high priority for most if not all midlevel and highend sedans and coupes. Economidgets a la Geo, FWD. A little touch of retro here & there is fine. I think the SSR will do OK, but let's keep it at that. Let's not go the way of the already stale Peepee Cruiser

 

What's really ironic about all this is that Bob Lutz hates Cadillac's "arts & Science" look... especially the CTS.

 

...by the time we get another Camaro in 2007, the retro fad will be long gone.

Having said that, I also hope when it does return I can instantly tell it is a Camaro......Heritage is a good thing.

 

I agree completely..........and how firm are you on that 2007 date?

 

When it comes to car styling, what attracted me to the F-bodies (specifically the Pontiacs) is the clean, aerodynamic styling (except the 3rd-gen T/A with the excessive nose ground effects... I had a 91 305 Firebird first, then got the 93 T/A when someone rear-ended me.)...

The 'retro' style may be nice for those who owned a 60's/70's car (just like I'll probably look back in 20 years and want a car that looks like a late-3rd gen Firebird), but IMHO the future F-body, if made, should keep getting more streamlined (like the Vette has).

Make it look like it could do Mach 1 given wings & a tail. Use pop-up headlights on the Pontiac side. Don't go back to the round bug-eye headlights and boxy (visible vertical grille) side profile (ala VW/Audi/Mustang 5.0/etc...). And especially don't raise it higher off the ground!

However, some 'modern' looks are even worse. PLEASE, oh PLEASE do not put that Aztec-inspired snowplow-nose (i.e. 'If you lowered the car enough, you could clear your driveway with this', seen on Caddys and the new GTO) on any resurrected F-body... Just continue on where the 2002 left off (with maybe a little, make that a LOT less frontal nose area on the T/A)...

 

I'm a member of the "Just say NO to bad styling"

If a car looks cool, then I will buy it. I don't car if they borrowed or even stole ideas from the past. As long as they are stealing good ideas.

 

I dont think that you can say one automatically sucks and the other is automatically good. I cant stand the T bird, but love the 49 and GT.

Its all about the end result, not the label that some try and attach.

I think Nissan/Infiniti is kicking but with its modern interpetations of the automobile, nothing retro about them at all.

That G35 Coupe is very hot, for example, and are flying off the dealer lots. I had my exwife call me and ask me what that kind of car it was that she saw, (she desribed a Infiniti Coupe) and she gushed about how good it looked. Let me tell you I have never heard her gush about any car ever before. I would say Nissans vision of the future IS better than Caddys.

I have never expected Caddy to go Retro. What in their past would they be proud to emulate today? Or better said, what would SELL today? The only enduring Caddy theme I can think of would be the fins and chrome. Can you image the lambasting they would get if they did them? Old people would buy them, but the young people they are trying to attract would not, not to mention what the overseas press would say. So the Caddy design people have no choice but to avoid Retro and poor mouth it.

I am with Bob Lutz tho, I absolutely hate Art and Science. So did Caddy sell 20,000 CTS's then? Not bad, but that is but a fraction New Bettle sales in a year, not to mention AudiTT's, PT Cruisers, or Mini Coopers. Retro is not going anywhere. I bet you for example, that the Mini will look pretty much like it does now for 20 years at least, while Art and Science will have by then long been relegated to the trash bin of history.

 

Not sure of the exact numbers but CTS has sold many more than 20,000. The comparison to the PT Cruiser or Cooper isn't valid anyway, we're talking about two very different cars in different price brackets. By the way why do you think VW and Chrysler are introducing covertible Beetles and PT's? People are losing interest....the styling is no longer fresh (not that the "new" Beetle's ever was) and the novelty is wearing off. Count me as an "ever-forward" car-design kind of guy.

 

Exactly.

You can't compare a $17k economy cars to $34k entry level luxury cars.... it just doesn't wash.

I can turn it too... how many Prowlers sold?

Fact is, CTS is a great success story.

I will agree with Reno that, yes, there CAN be good looking retro cars... BUT, I would not use that on a car line that is intended to continue into the future... On things that are potential one-off runs, that's fine... or on nameplates with no history (How ironic is THAT ?? ) , like PT Cruiser, well, OK go for it...

BUT, and weve all expressed out views on this before, so in short, retro is a dead end... especially for established car lines... I can't wait to see where Ford goes with the T-Bird on it's first re-style... what else are they gonna re-hash... or maybe it'll just be killed off again.

 

While I can't give you exact dates (for a couple of reasons)....I believe we are a little more than a couple of years away from even being able to utter the words Camaro in the halls of GM again .....given that and a realistic startup timeline....I'd venture an educated guess that we'll see a real prototype at the 2006 NAIAS with production later that year as a 2007 model

I'd also like to say that any comments about the Camaro coming from supposed GM sources before that time should be filed under the title of MIS-information as I am now certian of said gag order.

We're now only a week away from 2003...so it won't be forever...it'll just feel like it

 

Your sources are likely better than mine, but they all seem to be pointing to the same thing, 2007.

As for the retro debate, some of you are right IMO that retro isn't universally bad. The PT Cruizer without it's retro design is just another minivan, the Mini Cooper's retro design is an outstanding looking car, and the Ford GT is perfect for a limited edition Supercar.

Yet the Beetle has deja-vu all over it, and I personally prefer the muscular coupe look of the previous Thunderbird as opposed to the newer stylized version (and my poster child of what Retro really is) even though it's still popular on the sales floor. It's all in how it's carried out & what type of car it's used on.

The upcomming Mustang Fastback seems to be in the Mini Cooper catagory, a car that may infact look far better than the original. The upcomming Chrysler 300 is taking on a neo-classical look, that could be said has retro elements and feel, without actually easily falling into the 'retro' catagory.

As far as updating these designs, the originals evolved into newer designs, so to say that there is no where to go once a car is designed as "retro" is ignoring automotive design history.

I like good car designs, and some designs are truly better than others. not all retro looks great, just like all "new edge" styling isn't great, or all "cab forward" isn't automatically attractive. I prefer forward designs, but there are some cars that may be considered retro that are quite good looking.

 

I wouldn't say there is 'nowhere' to go, but let's use Camaro as a model:

Givens: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gens... they already exist.

Now the 5th gen. Let's say it's a retro version of the 1st gen.

After it's lifecycle, would we then logically goto a 6th gen that is a retro version of the 2nd gen?

Then the 7th Gen would be a 3rd gen recycler?

Then the 8th Gen would copy the 4th Gen...

NOW... the 9th gen (I know I am reaching since we don't even have a 5th gen yet, but just play along for arguments sake) where do you go with this?? A retro-retro first gen somehow

It's just a big dead-end circle, and you basically paint yourself into a corner.

Go forward not backward.

There are a few places to start with a 'retro' design... there are infinite places to start with a new, forward thinking design.

Yes, it needs to be easily recognizable as a Camaro. But all the previous Camaros pulled that off without being retro.... as did it's big brother, Corvette.