Here's your Chevy Caprice cop car....
10-06-2009, 06:58 AM
#46
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: BFE, Ohio
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To put it mildly, as their plans are now, it's going to not just fail, but it will crash and burn in the most grand manner.
It's business case simply doesn't add up when you look at the realities of what any taxpayer financed agencie's procurement divisions look at and what they take into account.
Maybe places like Beverly Hills and BelAir might spring for one. But in real agencies where low purchase price, low maintence price, widespread parts availability, dealer availability (even police cars under warranty return to dealers for repair), proven reliability, and resale value are all taken into account, Carbon Motors isn't even in the ballpark.
Carbon Motor's whole business case is based on "manufacture to order" (which will also make parts scarce), high initial cost that in theory makes up for the cost of car-plus-equptment, and then the idea that at the end of it's service life, police departments will simply turn them in to be recycled.
Not exactly the way civilian public agencies look at things.
Look for both Dodge Charger and Cheverolet Caprice to own the market.
It's business case simply doesn't add up when you look at the realities of what any taxpayer financed agencie's procurement divisions look at and what they take into account.
Maybe places like Beverly Hills and BelAir might spring for one. But in real agencies where low purchase price, low maintence price, widespread parts availability, dealer availability (even police cars under warranty return to dealers for repair), proven reliability, and resale value are all taken into account, Carbon Motors isn't even in the ballpark.
Carbon Motor's whole business case is based on "manufacture to order" (which will also make parts scarce), high initial cost that in theory makes up for the cost of car-plus-equptment, and then the idea that at the end of it's service life, police departments will simply turn them in to be recycled.
Not exactly the way civilian public agencies look at things.
Look for both Dodge Charger and Cheverolet Caprice to own the market.
Pre-order form with option list
'E7' PRODUCTION SLOT RESERVATION FORM
Law enforcement agencies may place a reservation for a production slot with Carbon Motors Corporation for the world's first purpose-built law enforcement patrol vehicle, the 'E7'. This no-obligation reservation will provide preferred customer status when issuing your official purchase order and will provide Carbon Motors an opportunity to better plan its production and rollout plan.
Provided that Carbon Motors Corporation will build the Carbon 'E7' to my specification after I have selected from over 50 options on the vehicle, that the vehicle will provide a lower total cost of ownership, and that it will be backed by a comprehensive service program, our agency would like to put forth the following request for a no-obligation reservation for production slots as follows:
Law enforcement agencies may place a reservation for a production slot with Carbon Motors Corporation for the world's first purpose-built law enforcement patrol vehicle, the 'E7'. This no-obligation reservation will provide preferred customer status when issuing your official purchase order and will provide Carbon Motors an opportunity to better plan its production and rollout plan.
Provided that Carbon Motors Corporation will build the Carbon 'E7' to my specification after I have selected from over 50 options on the vehicle, that the vehicle will provide a lower total cost of ownership, and that it will be backed by a comprehensive service program, our agency would like to put forth the following request for a no-obligation reservation for production slots as follows:
Who is going to service the E7?
Carbon intends to maximize vehicle uptime for law enforcement agencies. Carbon will use our law enforcement’s nationwide service infrastructure (a majority of the agencies have their own service facilities) in order to service the vehicle in concert with our Carbon Service Centers where necessary. Carbon will have parts readily available and will tailor the service and repair solution to the region and the specific law enforcement agency.
Carbon intends to maximize vehicle uptime for law enforcement agencies. Carbon will use our law enforcement’s nationwide service infrastructure (a majority of the agencies have their own service facilities) in order to service the vehicle in concert with our Carbon Service Centers where necessary. Carbon will have parts readily available and will tailor the service and repair solution to the region and the specific law enforcement agency.
10-06-2009, 07:54 AM
#47
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Location: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
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10-06-2009, 10:06 AM
#50
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Location: Irving, TX
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10-06-2009, 10:43 AM
#52
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Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 9,710
Having the spare tire under the mat in the trunk is not a good idea in a police car. If you ever have to use it you will have to unpack everything you store in the trunk to get to the spare, and thats alot of stuff. Right now the trunk in my Crown Vic is packed pretty full.
Thanks for the photos.
10-06-2009, 10:50 AM
#53
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Sorry, looks like they're calling them "reservations" Still looking for the info online to back that up, buy I know 10,000 is the number they have been saying.
Pre-order form with option list
Pre-order form with option list
This no-obligation reservation will provide preferred customer status when issuing your official purchase order and will provide Carbon Motors an opportunity to better plan its production and rollout plan.
Chrysler can create a unstoppable deal or package with not just the current Charger, but the upcoming new Charger due late next year. When alot of those "no obligation reservations" were made, everyone knew the Crown Vic was being retired, but no one knew that a RWD Caprice would return as a police car. If there is no obligation and I'm a procurement officer or official, sure I'd say I'm intrested in order to have it as an option.
Generally, government agencies by law must bid out their purchases, and decide based on which vehicles fit their requirements and needs at the best price. Durability & factory support (police cars under warranty aren't repaired in a city garage, they go back to the dealer), and potential down time all factor in. The availability of parts means extended service life well beyond warranty.
Given a choice between a Chrysler, General Motors, and Carbon, the know entities are going to have a huge advantage. Add in the rest of the picture, and I don't see Carbon doing very poorly and failing.
The only way Carbon has a fighting chance of surviving is to either also produce civilian versions or win a very major contract with the Federal Government (ie: AM General's Hummvee) and use that to build up a image & reputation (and improve reliability that any all-new non-major-manufacturer developed vehicle has issues with) which can transfered over to market it outside the government & military.
Last edited by guionM; 10-06-2009 at 11:09 AM.
10-06-2009, 11:08 AM
#54
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Location: The Golden State
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Again, the whole enterprise doesn't make business sense. They are going to need to recoupe the cost of development, and there simply are not going to be the buyers that they are saying. Reservations or not. They are taking reservations and saying they have 10K of them to sell the idea to investors and to secure loans to fund the company and get the vehicle made.
The Police car market runs between 60-90K annually (depending on the economy). General Motors, Dodge (and even Ford) combined will almost certainly dominate 90% of that market... minimum.
The question then becomes can a mere 6-9K cars per year (and keep in mind, I'm being extremely optimistic for a car with no relibility history) sold at $30K or so pay for not only the development of this all new vehicle and keep the lights on and the taxes paid, but also is enough volume to keep the intrest of OEMs that have limited capacity who also supply major manufacturers that (as bad as they are) have a far more solid future... and making on time payments... than what Carbon is likely to do?
Again, the only way Carbon has a snowball's chance in hell of being more than a curious Delorean-like footnote in automotive history is selling a civilian version to generate volume and money, or gaining a big government contract that will at the very least cover the cost of development and allow them to wring out the inevitable bugs and gremlins out of sight of the civilan (and law enforcement) eyes.
The Police car market runs between 60-90K annually (depending on the economy). General Motors, Dodge (and even Ford) combined will almost certainly dominate 90% of that market... minimum.
The question then becomes can a mere 6-9K cars per year (and keep in mind, I'm being extremely optimistic for a car with no relibility history) sold at $30K or so pay for not only the development of this all new vehicle and keep the lights on and the taxes paid, but also is enough volume to keep the intrest of OEMs that have limited capacity who also supply major manufacturers that (as bad as they are) have a far more solid future... and making on time payments... than what Carbon is likely to do?
Again, the only way Carbon has a snowball's chance in hell of being more than a curious Delorean-like footnote in automotive history is selling a civilian version to generate volume and money, or gaining a big government contract that will at the very least cover the cost of development and allow them to wring out the inevitable bugs and gremlins out of sight of the civilan (and law enforcement) eyes.
10-06-2009, 11:26 AM
#55
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Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Mustang GTs were alot more expensive than the Special Service Mustangs.
The civilian Crown Victoria was more expensive than the police interceptor version, and the Gran Marquis (which is the same car) also costs an arm and a leg more.
The G8 has no bearing on what the Holden Caprice police car will sell for.
This is flat wrong. Take it from someone who owns a GTO and G8. Aside from some of the drivetrain almost nothing seems to carry over from Holden to GM NA Zeta. Anything in a Holden car takes forever to get (if you can), and costs more than you would expect. Remember..none of Holden's non drivetrain parts come from GM NA, so it almost all has to be shipped over hear. Dealers complain about parts for the Impala being more expensive than the Crown Vic...they will have a fit over this car.
The GTO, being a uniquely Holden vehicle, does in fact have alot of parts that don't carry over to other GM cars or supply systems.
The G8 does.... unless you crash the thing and need sheetmetal.
Furthermore....
There are only about 45,000 GTOs in the United States.
There are less than about 30,000 G8s here in the US.
The parts network for civilian cars is somewhat different than law enforcement. Down time and repair support is mandatory with all contracts I know about. A strong parts supply is also a major factor.
Law enforcement vehicles are put under extreme useage, and some parts are in fact stockpiled. GM will have a very good supply network on the Caprice.
You might even find it a little easier to get those hard to get parts (whatever they are) for your G8.
Trivia: Chrysler used to sell entire Diplomat door assemblies to police departments.
10-06-2009, 11:32 AM
#56
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Location: Irving, TX
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I think the post about being offered to the public looked like it was for the Caprice. Then it looks like you were talking about the Carbon Motors product. I am confused.
10-06-2009, 01:14 PM
#58
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Location: BFE, Ohio
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Me too, this community is really counting on them and the 1300 jobs they plan on bringing, as well as additional business that might be attracted to the area as a result of them setting up shop.
10-06-2009, 02:22 PM
#59
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Join Date: Apr 2002
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Originally Posted by guionM
The Police car market runs between 60-90K annually
There are 30,000 G8's in the US after a few years. GM could potentially sell 30,000 Caprices in a single year. GM knows the price they have to meet (the bid results are pretty standard and consistent) and the goods they need to deliver. The numbers for the Caprice must have been solid before they made the public announcement. This is not a fickle market like the public sector.
Making the Caprice in showrooms is just icing on the cake.
Originally Posted by guionM
The G8 has no bearing on what the Holden Caprice police car will sell for.
