formula79

I have largely sat on the sidelines in this argument..but I know the jist is that Alpha is supposed to somehow be the underpinnings of the next Camaro. I then noticed today that GM is calling the ATS a 3 Series fighter. To do that...they are gonna have to make one hell of a chassis. So my question is..how does Camaro fit in? It seems that it is much easier to take a low price platform up market, than bring a high price platform down market. Remember all the talk back in the day about Sigma and the Camaro? To make Sigma cheaper you had to replace a lot of aluminum bits with steel, which in turn drove up the weight. GM is not gonna compromise the platform in anyway that hurts Cadillac..so the Camaro would be where compromises happen. Ford is still having issues getting Volvo platforms in at a reasonable price point despite doing it for years (ie new Taurus).


The current Zeta platform, while not as cheap as VE it replaced..is a fairly cheap RWD platform. However even with that, the Camaro has places were cost corners were obviously cut and it weighs too much. Still with all that, the Camaro is probaly about 5% more price wise than it should be. So I am trying to understand how you can take a platform that first and formost will be designed to blow the doors off a 3 series...and then dumb it down to a $25K V6 Camaro that weighs less than the current car. I know there is all this talk about smallness...but the 3 series is not a lightweight or particularly small car. The manual weighs almost 3600lbs, and that is after you save a few hundred pounds using aluminum.

teal98

Good questions.

It could be possible to do this, especially if the design center is the V6 model. Take a look at the Hyundai Genesis, where the coupe shares parts with the luxury sedan, yet still has a low base price. The Genesis V6 coupe weighs 3500 pounds (250 less than the Camaro) and has 306hp.

BTW, I'm not sure how much aluminum the CTS has. It's pretty heavy -- heavier than the larger Genesis V6. The next CTS will need more Al.

Eric77TA

Almost everything I've read about Alpha to date has said that their has to be a volume, non-Cadillac model to justify the existence of the platform. The Pontiac G6 replacement was planned at one time to be on Alpha. Like Teal said, Hyundai have been able to make a low cost coupe out of an overengineered luxury sedan, so I guess it's not impossible.

Sixer-Bird

I think Charlie might go nuts if Alpha turns into another Sigma.

guionM

Very, very good questions, Jason.

Funny thing is that's apparently much along the same questions that's being asked at GM as they bounce ideas around as to what's next for mid decade Camaro.

I don't believe for a minute that Alpha will be directly a Camaro. Nor do I believe for even a moment that the next Camaro will be a 3200 pound wundercar that some here think.

Frankly, if the next Camaro has a high powered V8, it's going to be heavy.

If it has a high powered V8, it's going to continue to be on Zeta.

The Alpha is not... repeat... is not being developed around a V8 engine.

As with the Kappa, sure it can "FIT" a V8 since it can fit both a 4 and a V6 (as can a Malibu and even a Ford Fusion for that matter). And because of that, some are going to take that fact and run with it. But simply because you catch a football and run in the wrong direction, doesn't mean that you're going to score a point for your team.

Alpha is being centered around 4 cylinder and V6 engines. The most powerful engine it will have will be a version of the direct injected V6. Reason being is exactly what you think it is: Weight and Fuel Economy. Fuel Economy is an obvious goal, but as has been mentioned many times (and Branden hits squarely) there is no such thing as a "Free Ride", or "Miracle Metal" that both has the weight of Titanium but is as cheap as iron.

The Alpha is being created as a mid weight vehicle whose claim to fame is handling. GM is looking towards this vehicle as a car for Cadillac, with the potential of becoming a premium sports sedan for other divisions as well. If it sounds familiar, it is. That was the same way Zeta was sold to GM-NA about 5 years ago.... and you see how that plan ended up.

In fact, there have already been things said about the cost of the Alpha chassis being incompatable with where the cost would need to be for Camaro to be based on it.

Add massive horsepower, then you start down the slippery slope of adding material and components to deal with the added power, including drivetrain, suspension, brakes, and a heavier body to support all this and maintain NVH and structural strength. Make a 325 or so horse DI 3.6 the top power, and then you can do without at least a couple of hundred pounds worth of weight that's you'd need to handle a vehicle packing a four-and-a-quarter-hundred horsepower and torque. And, while you can make a heavy car handle (the 2 ton blown GT500 puts out 91gs and handles like it was on rails), there's no doubt you will feel the difference with a car weighing around 3500 pounds.

Noteworth is the fact that GM has no current plans to eliminate Sigma. In fact, GM still has on the back burner ideas to use Sigma in the future. GM also intends to have at least 2 new large Epsilons out within the next 2 1/2 years. So Alpha is not taking the place of large cars.

Camaro doesn't equal Alpha. At the moment, there is no plans to move Camaro to Alpha.

If in the future, GM modifies the Alpha the way Ford modified the DEW-98 (Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird/Jaguar XF/Jaguar XS) to create the Mustang's D2C, that added struts and a live axle (or the GTO's cheaper & lighter trailing arm IRS) and ran with a DI V6, then I can easily see it happening.

But thinking that the Alpha will spawn a smaller lighter Camaro SS using the same powertrain while having the same capabilities as the current one is pretty far off the mark.


Trivia:
Based on plans made under Jac Nasser when he was CEO of Ford, the Australian Ford Falcon, the US Ford Fusion, Lincoln Zephyr and the Ford Mustang were all to use the DEW-98 chassis. A later Ford plan had the production Eliminator (which became the Taurus), the Aussie Ford Falcon, and the Lincoln MKS to use a version of the D2C chassis that underpins the current Mustang. Instead the MKS went on the Volvo based Five Hundred structure, while the new Taurus was accelerated and went on the same chassis it had. The RWD Aussie Falcon... though no one at Ford is publically saying so... is currently doomed. There is currently no RWD replacement on the books.

Z284ever

wrong!

Koz2

According to what sources?

Z284ever

My sources.

posaune

Not that is matters to me, I am a V6 guy, is Alpha being engineered to accept V8s? If so, how is it going to be different from Zeta?

flowmotion

Without having any sources, I'm sympathetic to guion's argument. The normal replacement cycle would put the sixth gen in 2016-18. Hard to predict what consumer demand and the price of gas will look like. I'm sure they're considering it, but GM considers a lot of things.

AdioSS

who?

formula79

I think Guy is just getting old...

AdioSS

What's funny, is he uses your name properly later in the post.

Z28Wilson

I grow weary of the excuses. Now comes the fact that Camaro did not receive a 5-star frontal crash rating when we were told a lot of the weight was necessary to guarantee such a rating, and that a 5-star rating was crucially important.

I understand all of what Guy is saying. If GM cannot find a way to bring me a V8 pony car at a reasonable weight, be it on Alpha or Omega or whatever, I may just have to get past the ugliness (IMO) of Mustang when I am ready to buy. Apparently they have it figured out.

formula79

The Camaro weighs what it is because it is based on a 4000lb Commodore sedan. The Camaro had to cost the same, or less than the G8, yet required all new sheet metal and interior. plus the cost of retooling the plant, and resourcing all the parts in the US. I guess what I am saying is the only way Camaro could be lighter is if the platform was signifigantly reengineered, or light weight materials were used..which of course GM did not have the money to do.

One thing people miss is that the 3 series weighs 3600 lbs, and that is with 300lbs weight savings from aluminum use. In the absence of signifigant size reduction, added cost, and light weight materials, it is very hard to get most midsized cars today under 3700lbs. The Mustang is an exception because even though it was originally spawned from a luxury car (DEW98), Ford spend some serious dollars on reengineering the whole platform to suit Mustangs mission (including fitting the live axle). You can do that at 200K+ units a year. Whether or not GM will ever see enough worth in Camaro to do that remains to be seen.