Scott,
good response..your veiws are pretty much on what Im sayin..and I agree with you almost 100% on what you say...its just terminoligy thats got us on either sides, and the fact that you hate import cars.I found a weird curiosity to them..kinda funny on what will come out next..ya know..and most of the time I will laugh and say soo corney..
which leads me to my reply to what I consider rice, import tuner stuff like that.
we use rice as an interchangeable thing as you would say hot rod muscle car..1 in the same..rice tuner..1 in the same..or so..
my def. of rice..some kid that slaps stickers on in and around his car buys wheels that cost more than the car..a huge wing and rediculous looking exhaust pipe and thinks now that it looks fast it is..and tries to race you..and does the ricer fly by cus you let up you won and he kept going past you saying I WIN.. thats rice..
Import: basically a kid that took the time to do his car..engine, brakes, interior and exterior..from respectible companies..and the car is all around done well, in HIS scene..I have seen some nice cars that are not american cars rolling down the street..well done machines..and some butt ugly flash and no go rides that I saw WTF...

Import Tuner..basically the kid that back in the day would walk into a dealer and say I want a Yenko Camaro..hes got the $$ now to dump 50K into a Civic Si and have it run like a Z06..why cus its a Civic..and he wants to be diffrent..but hes got the $$$ to pay tuner prices so hes got a tuner car..show and go..

now if I remeber the first car done by HOT ROD magazine as a feature was a 4 banger lake racer..is it a hot rod? its in hot rod mag back in the 50's???
I belive its al perception..kinda like I call it Potato you call it Potaaato
In classic deffinition yes Imports are not hot rods..not at all when you think of hot rods.. but if anyone tinkers with a car to make it faster then by deffinition they are hot rodding it..or as they say "tuning" it I guess..
and I know about the GTO..yes its the same drivetrain as out FBody..I know this but its still a Holden..outside of the box of GM and still going to be imported here..and our cars are made in Canada with Mexican parts..and most Imports are made HERE..so yes they are getting jumbled together..as far as no true car anymore..and yes Ford is a good example..Mazda engine in ranger, probe stuff like that..wasnt the V6 SHO a Yahmaha powerplant? so they american or what??

now from what I have determined a Muscle car is something that came from the factory as a whoop *** machine..from the early bearers of the name to the last ones to hold it..Camaro Firebird and Mustang..
"?" would you consider the Mecury Maurauder a muscle car? or the Lightning? I would!

but like you said you drop a 500 caddy motor into a Monte..thats when I call it hot roddin the Monte..making it faster than what came from the factory..thats a hot rod to me..

side note to the price for the $2000 and not in the 12's..well not a problem but you going just by parts or all together labor and stuff.. I put about 1600 into the Camaro..
new K/N filter; $60
CAI: $100
MAF: $175
airfoil: $40
AIT relocator:$40
Shift kit:$90(900 for trans rebuild/labor)
Cutout:$40
HPP+:$200
Flowmaster 80 series with tips:$230
whole new rearend with 3.43 gears:$450
and mis. stuff odds and ends..SFC STB...1LE trans mount..DR tires..
and thats not including labor on some things..the $900 for the trans..the rearend..stuff like that..and just bought hooker shorties for 460..so that puts me at about 2K..will I run 12's?? dont know..but will be close..like I said sure I could of went and bought DR and some nitrous..but what would the cmaro do after a few runs like that..and also apperance mods..GM export lights dont come cheep. 2002 Z28 wheels and stuff..things like that I didnt even include..so there ya go..how much you pay to get where you are? you in the 12's or near it for that? or could you..cus it would be cool to do one more mode after this to get 12's.. t/c?? LS1 drivshaft?? weight reduction...stuff like that..

okay enough about that..
but what I consider a hot rod and you do are two diffrent terminology..
take in point here..my buddy in the ODG has a 4 DR Cry. LHS..FWD..yes but with TOTAL Prowler running gear..control modual,T/B's, intake..manifolds..basically a prowler in a LHS body..what is that?? is it a muscle car hot rodded??
its just someones opinion on terminology..you use it loosely..I define the meanings.
do you think any FWD car be a muscle car? say like the factory ordered Grand Prix GTX..they are pretty fast.the 80's SVO Mustang with a 4 banger outrunning Z's of that time...or trucks like the typhoon or cyclone..or the lightning? they all under the muscle car terminoligy??
to me yes..factory muscle cars..above the normal offerings..like the new GTO..
is the new Monte SS a muscle car..hell no.
or the Malibu..same thing NO..
there is a thin line really now a days since there is no muscle cars now..so its branched out..to otehr areas of the autoworld..

and I think Hot Rodding is liguring out how to make more HP using your own time money and or hands to make your factory car go faster than it came from the dealer!

but good debating this with ya Scott..instead of flamin eachother saying rice lover and such..to me I like any car that is fast looks good and the guy that drives it a cool person to talk to. no matter what he drives..guess being in the ODG has broadened my mind on what a hot rod is..I have a muscle car..but the others in my group dont..one has a Daytona Shelby..little pocket rocket..who knew..lol its a nice car ..
when you look at things without prejudgement as I do then you go wow..that sucks of wow thats cool..
I mean I used to be a stang fan FORD FORD FORD..then I got my 78 RS and was like wow I got to get a better one..got my 94..and was like DODGE SUCKS..fords ok...and now I have a Dakota with over 218,000 miles on it..and like WOW dodge is not too bad..my bro and mom have Nissan Pathfinders..AWSOME SUV's..wouldnt mind owning one if my truck goes..
case in point I love cars..all cars.
guy in a 90's SHO kept up with me on the highway a few days ago and I was LOL going soo coool thats how I am.. I like cars and the lines that I draw are my own but strick in what I determin a hot rod is..and a Muscle car is...but for the most part American cars are Muscle cars and Hot Rods.untill the GTO gets here..well Holden actually is a Muscle car co. dream come true..there whole line is what we used to have here..all base versions to wild SS GTO versions..wish I had the $$ to get a GTO..
we are just sitting on top of oposite sides of the same fence...
again Scott good to talk with ya.
have a good one and cheers back!
Dave




------------------
thanks
David Morgan
the "Over Drive Gang"
94 Z28 A4, K/N FIPK!,AIT Relocator,TB bypass,99 SS MAF Airfoil,HPP+, Shiftkit,Cutout, Flowmaster 80 series American Thunder Exhaust with 3" Chrome tips GMS Strut Tower Brace, GMS Sub Frame Connectors AND 93-96 GM Export Tail Lights! GTS Headlight Covers and Tail covers.

http://overdrive-gang.tripod.com

Check it out !! you might know some of the cars, or my friends.and a few of their rides frequent the pages of muscle car mags

Congrats Tony L. of the "ODG" Owner of The BBC 6SP 81 Malibu

Making Hot Rod Mags top 10 cars of 2001!!

 

This is an interesting discussion! I've got mixed feelings about this... but believe firmly about a few:

1. I hope the next Camaro is not smaller than today's! Personally I think the Mustang is too small today (it's actually 9 in. shorter than a 2002 Camaro). The Camaro is the right size IMHO, just not using its space right due to the long overhangs and the short wheelbase. I for one don't really care about having a big trunk - but it would be nice to have a real back seat, like the 2004 GTO. And I don't see the need for a slew of trim and engine choices... just one very hot V8 for the Z/28 and a stout V6 for the base model please!

2. This thing about size... it matters to me, and my wife (please, don't drag that statement down into the gutter ). We both want my next hi-po car to have a real back seat... she even gave me to go-ahead to get a GTO next year! I plan to keep saving though. I really believe the Camaro could be made about the same size inside as the Monaro, and still have the Camaro character, performance and value. It's just a matter of design and styling.

3. I don't like small cars, fast or not. I give all the props in the world to tuners of sport imports - they have made some impressive numbers (albeit at significant cost, and with disappointing torque). I just don't see myself in one anytime this lifetime. Too cramped, buzzy, tinny-feeling (sit in a WRX and slam the door... yikes!), feature-deprived and UNSAFE. Mass is an advantage in an accident... in fact according to www.crashtest.com , at http://www.crashtest.com/explanations/weight/ie.htm , in a two-vehicle crash you are EIGHT times more likely to die than the occupants in the other vehicle, if that vehicle is twice as heavy as yours.

4. GM's going to pursue the sport import market, that was part of the recent announcements and the creation of the Performance Division. I don't like the term 'rice' - seems kind of racial. So I don't use it much. It seems people say 'ricer' when they are really talking about a poser - a car with a lot of fancy trim but no guts. There are lots of domestic posers too (including some from GM, eg, 205 hp Monte Carlo SS). There are some pretty impressive sport imports out there - WRX, RSX-S, 350Z... but I hesitate to call them hot rods even though some like the WRX have been "hot-rodded" by owners. In fact it seems they prefer to call them "tuned" anyway, sounds more high-tech (in many cases it IS).

5. On terminology, by the strictest definition of the term "muscle car" is:

I got this from http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...finition.shtml ... they have some other definitions there too. To me, I usually picture the given car with a raised rear end and some slicks on the back. If it looks absurd, it's not a muscle car! (Notable exception: old Corvettes ). Obviously it also needs a good ol' V8 or a boosted V6. My GTP is a sporty sedan but is not really a "muscle car" IMO. It's FWD! Is the new GTO a muscle car? I don't know - who cares, just bring it on!

Watch your step guys, talking about hot-rod belt sanders... some folks take them pretty seriously:

http://www.dnai.com/~markt/letters/s...beltsander.htm

ROTFL!


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NBM 99Formula, DF Lid, FRA, K&N, SLP WS6 Takeoff Muffler | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, 3.5 Pulley, transcooler
| Brilliant Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, K&N, Camaro SS takeoff muffler

 

Dave and All !!!

Been great 'Debating' with you! I agree that debating is much better than flaming. You actually learn something in a debate, while a flame war generally only shows what an *** both sides can be!

I think I'll leave it at this for now, but I'm going to post a new question in the LT1 tech section about getting 12's for $2000 out of an LT1... Check it out if you want!

On the appearance mods, this is the first car (my '95 Z28) that I am actually goin to spend some money on the looks rather than strictly on go-fast parts! I'll probably do a subtle hood and some kind of subtle, yet noticeably different than stock, spoiler on the back. Also, a set of whatever aftermarket wheels or newer Z28 or 'Vette or Camaro SS or whatever I decide I want, instead of what I've always done in the past, which was to just buy whatever decent wheels I could get at a swap meet really cheap or on ebay or whatever. I'll probably end up with some real gawdy 17" wheels or some kind of 5-spoke GM factory wheels.

Later Guys!

Cheers,
Scott

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www.RigdonHome.com
1995 LT1 Z28

 

will do scott..would like to find out what other mebers thought of as ideas to get in the 12's.. later all

------------------
thanks
David Morgan
the "Over Drive Gang"
94 Z28 A4, K/N FIPK!,AIT Relocator,TB bypass,99 SS MAF Airfoil,HPP+, Shiftkit,Cutout, Flowmaster 80 series American Thunder Exhaust with 3" Chrome tips GMS Strut Tower Brace, GMS Sub Frame Connectors AND 93-96 GM Export Tail Lights! GTS Headlight Covers and Tail covers.

http://overdrive-gang.tripod.com

Check it out !! you might know some of the cars, or my friends.and a few of their rides frequent the pages of muscle car mags

Congrats Tony L. of the "ODG" Owner of The BBC 6SP 81 Malibu

Making Hot Rod Mags top 10 cars of 2001!!

 

for the ricer market, they have the cavalier... which in the future they want to get serious with, but they're going to have a hard time turning the name around even if they do bring out awesome packages.

the 5th gen should not compete as a "ricer". Thats just not what the car is..


also, I've seen people from both sides of life with import AND domestic.

 

The RWD V8 Coupe has survived bigger problems than we're facing now. It will survive, with or without GM. Lead, follow, or become extinct. Survival of the fittest. No love lost on GM's imbeciles.

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1982 Recaro Trans Am (Y84), LU5/WS6/CC1/G80/J65/etc. 3,082 orig. miles (7/24/2002) - http://ohok.com/82recaro
1985 Base Firebird, F41/LB8/GU5/etc. CB radio, 142kmiles. http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsfb.jpg
1984 Firebird S/E, WS6/LL1/MD8/etc. All original, 102kmiles. Sold 5/02 http://ohok.com/82recaro/kizzsse.jpg

 

I'm not exactly anti-import, because I do hang out with many of the rice crowd. However, there are very few that break into the low 14's, 13's area. One night an 11 second Trans Am totally shut up the whole scene, and it was great. Ricers, well they have their place, but i wouldn't go as far to call them the modern hot rods. Alot of them just go for looks now because they can't afford 40k under the hood, we're kids on part time jobs. I barely make my monthly payments and i got my RS dirt cheap. Anyways, I do believe the 5th gen should be slightly redesigned. Make it lighter, around 3500lbs instead of 3800 lbs would be nice. Let it handle a bit nicer, sure maybe a bit smaller but i don't want a damn cougar. People want Camaros because they're in your face american muscle, if you want something else buy a mustang. (no offense blue oval guys). I'm in favor of a few more engine options, more aftermarket parts ect. But in the end i want an in your face camaro, big pushrod chevy v-8 under the hood. (I know i only have a 6 right now, but an 8 once i can accually afford it) Basically, keep it a camaro, but don't be afraid to update it.

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1996 Camaro RS
Black M5 T-Top

 

Hell is gonna freeze over before I buy a spend money on an f-body that may as well be a rebadged Civic type 'R'.

These imports you speak of... as someone pointed out earlier, people spend a ton of dough just to get in the twelves. Please... an f-bod can get easily into the 12s with less than 1000 bucks worth of mods (e.g. some DRs, lid). Hell GMHTP even proved it could be done BONE STOCK with a good driver (someone remind of their guys name).

Another thing... the highly modded imports that actually do make the grade after a lot of expensive custom work (e.g. 4 bangers making 400+ HP).. you think those will pass emissions? Not a hope in hell. Maybe that's not an important quality to you. But it matters because any production car sure as hell has to pass emissions as it rolls off the line. The fact is more cubes can help in reducing emissions when making bigger HP. And more cubes = bigger engine = packaging issues = larger car.

This is not to say GM should just produce another 4th gen, sure there are many things to improve on. But to say Imports ought to be the role-model for the 5th gen is just ludicrous.

[This message has been edited by Z28Marcus (edited July 30, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Z28Marcus (edited July 30, 2002).]