All the chatter over the GTO brings up a intresting though. Is Pontiac on the wrong track?

To be sure, Pontiac's main line cars are selling OK. But the "excitement" cars seem to be in trouble, and it seems Pontiac was depending on BMW-type people to fill the performance ranks while pushing the rambuncious performance types over to Chevrolet. While Chevy is quietly working on a RWD sports coupe, Pontiac killed off any idea it would make a new Firebird. Problem is, BMW-types buy BMWs, not high priced Pontiacs, and Chevrolet doesn't have anything for the rambuncious performance types, short of blown FWD Monte Carlos (soon to be V8s), and won't for another couple of years.

A couple of years ago, when Bob Lutz took over product at GM, he stated that he saw Pontiac as an American BMW. Since then, he undertook on stripping Pontiac of body cladding, and sought to emphasize the car's smooth body design over anything appearing to have the "boy racer" look.

The old win a "Pontiac for a Day" commercials were pulled because they didn't fit in with the image Pontiac wanted, and the direction they wanted to go.

If anything signified the direction Pontiac was going, it was the GTO. GTO's emphasis on hardware and performance without scoops, aggressive styling, and plastic add-ons or stripes and decals was precisely the car that signified the new Pontiac.

Yet the Grand Am, the symbol of the old Pontiac, is not just Pontiac's best selling car, but it's one of GM's 3 best selling cars. On the other end, is the GTO & GXP. GM saw GTO as a car that people would be so willing to pay for, that unlike more costly Cadillacs and Corvettes, GM refused to add incentives, and allowed dealers to inflate prices without a whimper.

Pontiac's other high priced "Gotta have it" car, the Bonneville GXP, is also not moving at expected numbers. GM has beat a face-saving retreat on the $35,000 front driver by placing an astounding $6,000 cash back on the car, effectively dropping the MSRP price down to $29,000.

Next up is the Solstice. A nice car, reasonably quick, but unlike Pontiac's other 2 "excitement" cars, this one comes with a reasonable price. But it still misses what Pontiac needs, something to draw enthusiasts.

GTOs are great for people my age who want and appreciate a sleeper. I car that is capable of surprising the begeezus out of unsuspecting flamboyant street racers without rating a second look when driving by a local member of the law enforcement community. But GTO lacks that "hook", that one thing that pushes people over the edge enough to not just buy it, but to crave it!

Love it or hate it, the new 300 has unique looks, unexpected quality, a lowball price, and with the 300C, flaming acceleration. Chevy and Ford have the historic and distinctive Corvette, Mustang, and Thunderbird. But when you look at Mercury, Buick, and Pontiac, you see a group of cars that tend to blend together with nothing standing out enough to gain attention.

Solstice will attract people into the showrooms, but without so much as a spoiler or retina burning colors, I'm suspecting it's not likely to be a big draw once the initial excitment wears off.

Pontiac seems to be retreating somewhat. Scoops and other revisions are in store for GTO, Solstice will have more power after the 1st year or 2, Pontiac is immediately behind Buick (possibly less than 1 year) in having a V8 RWD sedan. Pontiac's advertizing has backtracked from low keyed elegence to tire smoking. Pontiac hasn't abandoned it's "upscale" move just yet, but it doesn't seem so close minded in pursuing it.

It's also doubtful that GM will keep GTOs incentive free forever. The day they put Bonneville GXP-like incentives on a GTO, as fast as I get to a dealer selling at list price consider mine's ordered!

Seems that Pontiac's intention of producing high priced, low keyed "excitement" cars has been a bust.

 

"declading" Pontiac was a probably a good decision and is a good first step to changing the image of Pontiac but I expect it will take some time and definately some really good new cars. No more rebadged imports please!

If the goal of the GTO was to bring in BMW buyers, they made a mistake calling it GTO! Even to me (a non-GTO fanatic), the name brings to mind all those things that Lutz doesn't seem to want to apply to Pontiac - scoops, spoilers & stripes and with a 30 year absence, what else would people expect.

What I'm really, really hoping for is a Bob Lutz inspired Firebird. Can't you just imagine what that would be like? Sleak, fast, very stylish and completely visually different from a Camaro inside and out. Kind of like what the Caddy XLR is to the Vette. And who knows, without a 30 year gap, the traditional buyers might just see it as evolution instead of a retro gota-be-like-the-original.

 

I am happy with the direction the new GTO has taken. I had to get a GTP CompG for the MI winters and am very satisfied with it, but if I had the $$ I'd love to have an 04 GTO too. Maybe someday I can afford a used GTO. I'd be fine driving a GTO to work or hauling my two tykes around. When I had my 02 TA... I've got to admit... there are times it felt a little too bold, too over-the-top. Especially the tall spoiler. Thats where an LS1 Camaro SS shines.

From the buzz on here, it sounds like the 05 GTO will get some visual upgrades... that's fine by me since even with them it still looks dignified.

I have an LT1 Formula and it's a blast to drive plus the insurance is low (no collision coverage at all). But it's still pretty wild looking and I'd trade it for a GTO if I could.

 

Pontiac is my favorite division next to Cadillac right now with the Camaro gone. I definately like the direction their taking.

 

Fuel for the soul.

 

why make it like bmw? Isnt that what caddy is for? Pontiac cant seriously compete with bmw on all levels. BMW is KNOWN as a luxury car/ with status same for mercedes, lexus etc. They have there clientel and the first person that shows up in a pontiac is going to be laughed out of the yacht club. My step parents are well off, and the idea of owning anything other then a mercedes or bmw or some type of high scale luxury car such as caddy and they wont buy it, just because you slap on a 35k sticker on a car doesnt mean it is a benz contender. Pontiac is known for FWD economical trans portation with the flag ship being trans am. If you notice benz, has always produced rwd full size sedans, same for bmw. Status Image, and the thickness of your pockets is all that these people care about, pontiac is not high scale enough to attract that market, nor should it be, thats caddy's job. Let pontiac keep being the upscale chevy with radical styleing...thats what attracted me to the trans am, where else are you going to see a car that just screams testosterone like that? Lets keep pontiac, pontiac and leave the luxury cars to Caddilac.

 

I really think that Pontiac is headed in the right direction but the prices are a little high... The GTO is an excellent car for a very good price but the others like the GXP are over priced to a point.

The non-cladding has done what it's supposed to do...turn away the boy racers but that was the base for Pontiac in the first place. I feel that the transition will take some time. We are forgetting that all this is very new.. the interiors are much better and with build quality going up i'm sure that the buyers will come back in..

Cars like the GTO are a good way to bring in traffic but the solstice with it's very competitive pricing will make it better...
I say it will take another 24-36 months but POntiac will be back on track completely... especially with the G6 picking up the slack.. the future RWD Grand Prix and the Zeta GTO...

 

1) Prices too high on GXP and GTO.
2) Pontiac needs more RWD, AWD, and Sub $25K performance

other than that, Styling of new models is great (GXP, Solstice, G6)

 

Seems their "Excitement" models are priced more like BMW's than Pontiacs. I think that has more to do with anything than looks.

I mean, they don't have anything less than $30,000 that anyone other than Avis cares about. Oh well, at least they are throwing us a bone with the Solstice.

 

I never really bought into the idea that Pontiac is the "American BMW".....in fact, I've always thought it was a pretty silly notion. And by the way, if Pontiac's idea of an "American BMW" is decladding some body ribbing and adding five grand to the sticker....well, let's just say that won't have the desired effect.

Pontiac's heyday.... was truly the '60's. Style, class, image....Pontiac had it all. They even had a racing program that filtered down parts and image into production cars. And they were powered by real Poncho motors....not simply corporate powerplants. What could be better than popping the hood of your GTO, Grand Prix or Catalina and seeing a Pontiac Tri-Power 389 or 421.

Pontiac is in a difficult position. How does it differentiate itself in the shadow of Chevrolet? I don't see Pontiac as the "American BMW" though. Maybe on the high end an "American Audi" or on the low end, an "American SEAT".....oh hell, let's just split the difference and make it an "American VW" But of course, GM wants to make Saturn an "American VW".

I'm glad the GTO is here (except for price)....but I'd really like to see Pontiac become the supercharger or turbo specialist at GM. A Grand Am based vehicle with a 300 horsepower SC V6, six speed manual and AWD for well under 30 grand would IMHO, hit the sweet spot. I know the G6 GXP is coming......but Pontiac could use something like that NOW....maybe call it Grand Am 2+2, or Can Am, or T-37...or some other catchy Pontiac name.


I think I like that "American Audi" idea............

 

Truthfully, its too early to tell. Grand Am has been Pontiac's #1 selling car for at least a decade (another reason why GM is crazy to drop that name) so that doesn't spell the end for the current styling trend. I think its ironic that a German company is teaching us how American car companies can win (300C, Magnum etc.). Cadillac is also proving the point that we can not beat the Imports at their own game.We must lead, not follow. How many Camry/Accord clones have been attempted and failed? Olds anyone?
CTS, Escalade, Corvette, H2, and even Impala, are examples of GM doing what GM does best while drastically improving quality (still room for improvement). You will never mistake a CTS or Escalade for any import. Period. Clean sheet design. Uniquely american. The Corvette remains an american icon and a world class sports car with a gasp ANTIQUATED PUSHROD ENGINE. "But how can you have a world class car with pushrods?" No problem. Just build the lightest, most powerful, most fuel efficient, low emission, refined small block *ever*. The H2 is bigger than half the countries in Europe and Asia. so it had to be all american. Even the Impala stayed true to form by sticking with the large displacement 3800 pushrod v6, which by the way spent the better part of the last decade superglued to Ward's Automotive's "Ten Best Engines" list (but it sucks because its not dohc .
Quality, refinement, attractive interiors and FWD are not un-american concepts. Building cars with the visual excitement of a toaster is. Styling and attitude are what we do best.
So, more to the point of this thread, Pontiac can take BMW aspiring buyers by providing the performance, quality and refinement that they expect but NOT by cloning their bland style. If your aunt had ***** would she really be your uncle? No...so it stands to reason that a Pontiac with BMW performance and style still ain't a BMW. If you build boy-racer style cars, then BUILD THE BEST DAMN BOY-RACER CARS ON THE PLANET and the buyers will come. And oh yeah, bring back the Firebird. The best one ever.

 

Pontiac is going after a performance edge, in the same way BMW has taken performance edge. They arent going to go after BMW, but be like BMW offering sporty models that cant be found elsewhere.
I think Pontiacs pricing is a little high on some things. The GTO is priced right IMO, but the Bonnie GXP is a tad high. I think around 30k for the Bonnie is better. Pontiac needs to offer performance cars, but at a lower price. Im not saying 24k for a GTO, 20k for a comp G, but lower the price by a few grand. They need to get the people into the dealers with the low price, and after they have get the people in, then slowly start increasing the price along with the performance to the level that they need to be at. Much like Lexus did. They offerd luxury cars with great quality for a much cheaper price then the rest, and now they have made there way to the top. Same goes for Toyota. Look at a 1990 Toyota Camry and then look at a 2004 Camry. The whole car has changed by leaps and bounds. Same with the Civic, Accord, Corolla, and the rest of them. They have all climbed to the top, and thats what GM needs to do.
I think that Pontiac has the right idea, they have the right tools, they just need to know how to use them together. I also think that they need to get rid of the Vibe and Sunfire and make a unique Delta compact car that doesnt look like a rebadged Cobalt. The GTO, G6 and Solstice are the future of Pontiac. I think that a Zeta Bonnie would also be a great idea to put against the 300C and other performance sedans.

 

yeah i think scoops and dual exhausts would have be a great (OPTIONAL PACKAGE),

IMHO they should have gone that extra step in giving it LS2 power , or at least really puting a unique "high torque and HP cam" instead of just saying they will.

 

Has anyone noticed how toned down the cladding is on many of the Grand Ams now? The current ones (at least the SEs) look almost identical to Aleros, because they have smooth flanks all the way back. IMO, a MUCH nicer looking than the GT, just as the Alero was a MUCH nicer looking car than the Grand Am when they were both being sold in volume.

This is a very subtle change that seems to be helping people adjust to the new styling direction. I am a little concerned with dropping the Grand Am name for "G6", but I think dealers will just call it the "new Grand Am" if buyers seem to recognize that name more...