GTO Designer speaks ...
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Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 200
From: Sydney, Australia
GTO Designer speaks ...
Here ya go - straight from the Horses mouth:
Flogged from www.goauto.com.au
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
DESIGN CHIEF CONFIDENT
HOLDEN design chief Mike Simcoe is confident the new generation Monaro-based Pontiac GTO will find an enthusiastic buying audience in the US despite some criticisms that the car is not built there.
Debate has raged on auto enthusiast websites for months about the validity of the Monaro as a GTO, and the release of the first official sketch of the car last week has done nothing to quieten things down. "As long as the car delivers what they expect of it – that's performance and delivering the brand – then there shouldn't be a problem," Mr Simcoe said. "The performance of the car will be what sells it."
The redo of Monaro was performed by the same team that styled Monaro, led by chief designer Richard Ferlazzo with Jeff Haggerty handling the restyling of the nose.
Rather than hark back to the GTO's heritage, the Holden team has come up with a look that uses the front-end of the Solstice concept
unveiled in Detroit last January as its
inspiration. "What we have done is embody what they understand now as the Pontiac brand
cues in the vehicle," Mr Simcoe said. "The vehicle in the studio actually looks good, much better than the sketch. So don't judge it by the sketch."
But does he like it as much as the Monaro? "We designed the car that we are producing right now – any iteration beyond that is in my mind not as good as the original," Mr Simcoe said. "However, you can't sell a car over there without having a brand attached to it."
And what of the internet debate about the suitability of Monaro as a GTO? "My method on that one is 'grow up a bit, this is a car that will take you three or four steps above where a GTO left the market', so that's probably appropriate," Mr Simcoe said.</font>
DESIGN CHIEF CONFIDENT
HOLDEN design chief Mike Simcoe is confident the new generation Monaro-based Pontiac GTO will find an enthusiastic buying audience in the US despite some criticisms that the car is not built there.
Debate has raged on auto enthusiast websites for months about the validity of the Monaro as a GTO, and the release of the first official sketch of the car last week has done nothing to quieten things down. "As long as the car delivers what they expect of it – that's performance and delivering the brand – then there shouldn't be a problem," Mr Simcoe said. "The performance of the car will be what sells it."
The redo of Monaro was performed by the same team that styled Monaro, led by chief designer Richard Ferlazzo with Jeff Haggerty handling the restyling of the nose.
Rather than hark back to the GTO's heritage, the Holden team has come up with a look that uses the front-end of the Solstice concept
unveiled in Detroit last January as its
inspiration. "What we have done is embody what they understand now as the Pontiac brand
cues in the vehicle," Mr Simcoe said. "The vehicle in the studio actually looks good, much better than the sketch. So don't judge it by the sketch."
But does he like it as much as the Monaro? "We designed the car that we are producing right now – any iteration beyond that is in my mind not as good as the original," Mr Simcoe said. "However, you can't sell a car over there without having a brand attached to it."
And what of the internet debate about the suitability of Monaro as a GTO? "My method on that one is 'grow up a bit, this is a car that will take you three or four steps above where a GTO left the market', so that's probably appropriate," Mr Simcoe said.</font>
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Darth,
I'm totally with you on that man. Can you detect the "Here's what we want you to have" mentality in this project? How much effort would it have taken to get a little feedback from some GTO clubs or even forums like this?
GM's got some funked-up management issues to deal with right now. I really hope Lutz can bring some change around quickly.
And this guy Jeff Haggerty that "redesigned the nose"... WTF!!! I wish I could just call up someone else's old machine design and change a few hole locations/sizes and call it my work! How long did it take this guy to perform this revolutionary masterpiece? Bad thing is, he did exactly what he was told to by his super-v.
Somebody shoot me with Halon. Man, that article just set me off bad. What blatant attitude. We all have lots of work to do to get GM to hear us, y'all know this, right?
[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]
I'm totally with you on that man. Can you detect the "Here's what we want you to have" mentality in this project? How much effort would it have taken to get a little feedback from some GTO clubs or even forums like this?
GM's got some funked-up management issues to deal with right now. I really hope Lutz can bring some change around quickly.
And this guy Jeff Haggerty that "redesigned the nose"... WTF!!! I wish I could just call up someone else's old machine design and change a few hole locations/sizes and call it my work! How long did it take this guy to perform this revolutionary masterpiece? Bad thing is, he did exactly what he was told to by his super-v.
Somebody shoot me with Halon. Man, that article just set me off bad. What blatant attitude. We all have lots of work to do to get GM to hear us, y'all know this, right?
[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 25, 2002).]
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Call it insight...
Y'all recall all the comments about "we've only seen it from the front"? Well now you know why. The front is all that is mentioned in the article above, but mentioned in detail. Don't hold your breath for a different rear appearance or another significant change to the front before production begins. Time is running out.. August releases for MY2003 are just 5 weeks away.
HuJass, I agree with your comment about the Solstice too. Maybe it was a typo in the article... it should have said, "...the Holden team has come up with a look that uses the front-end of the Grand Prix - period". Oh well.
Y'all recall all the comments about "we've only seen it from the front"? Well now you know why. The front is all that is mentioned in the article above, but mentioned in detail. Don't hold your breath for a different rear appearance or another significant change to the front before production begins. Time is running out.. August releases for MY2003 are just 5 weeks away.
HuJass, I agree with your comment about the Solstice too. Maybe it was a typo in the article... it should have said, "...the Holden team has come up with a look that uses the front-end of the Grand Prix - period". Oh well.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
I think I may shed a little light here. Austrailians tend to be very straightforward, cut-through-the-BS type of people. Think of the totally opposite of whiners, & you have the typical Austrailian.
Knowing as many as I do, I can see where he is comming from. If we take a look at this site regarding the car, there is alot of complaining about a car that isn't even out yet from a country whose only RWD 4 seater performance car is a Mustang (the Cobra, which is sold down there is viewed as a cheap rip-off, just to give you some perspective).
Basically he said in Aussie-speak "quit your whining till you actually see the car & it's performance". Sounds fair to me.
Knowing as many as I do, I can see where he is comming from. If we take a look at this site regarding the car, there is alot of complaining about a car that isn't even out yet from a country whose only RWD 4 seater performance car is a Mustang (the Cobra, which is sold down there is viewed as a cheap rip-off, just to give you some perspective).
Basically he said in Aussie-speak "quit your whining till you actually see the car & it's performance". Sounds fair to me.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,647
From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Those people who designed the look of that GTO are idiots. That is it.
Lets make no sense. Again.
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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic.
"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]
Lets make no sense. Again.
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Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic.
"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg
[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited June 26, 2002).]
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 669
From: Arcadia, OK
Artists don't generally take criticism well... He is not wild about people trashing his design before they actually see the real thing. His last comment was true, though. This car is several steps above the original GTO in the class it will compete. This new "GTO" is not a modestly equipped mid-size with a hot engine, but a very nicely equipped, high-tech entry-lux mid-size coupe with a hot engine. In fact, he's probably offended that the GTO name be attached to his "baby."
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2001 Pewter/Ebony hardtop Firebird Formula, polished WS6 wheels, BFG CompTA, SLP SFC, BMR STB
[This message has been edited by routesixtysixer (edited June 26, 2002).]
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2001 Pewter/Ebony hardtop Firebird Formula, polished WS6 wheels, BFG CompTA, SLP SFC, BMR STB
[This message has been edited by routesixtysixer (edited June 26, 2002).]
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,724
From: Hebron, KY
I'm glad to see they went back to the original Monaro designers for this iteration. I'm not going to sell these guys short or take offense. From their standpoint, they've worked really hard on a car that has been a great seller and well received by the press and public. Because of this success, it's being sent to our shores and all they hear is, "well, that's not good enough" and "I don't think so--it's no GTO!". So I can see where they come off saying, "don't worry, it'll surpas anything the GTO of decades past did". They sold out their original artistic expression so it would look like a Pontiac because we asked for it. Come on. I think a lot of you are just looking for soundbytes to jump on or comments to pick apart. The car's coming over here in a year and from the sound of things, as it appears in that sketch. If you don't like it, fine, don't preorder one. I'm sure someone will step up in your place.
There is always resistance to a new iteration of a car. The Viper crowd is going through the same thing. Times change, styles change, cars change. And if you don't like the changes, stick with the '60s renditions you already approve of. My God, you'd think they switched the car to a 2.0L FWD econobox with some of these rants. It doesn't have hood scoops. Get over it.
------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula
There is always resistance to a new iteration of a car. The Viper crowd is going through the same thing. Times change, styles change, cars change. And if you don't like the changes, stick with the '60s renditions you already approve of. My God, you'd think they switched the car to a 2.0L FWD econobox with some of these rants. It doesn't have hood scoops. Get over it.
------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 100
From: South Bend, Indiana
I say dont shoot the designers, they were just doing what they were told to do. That retarded "Brand Identity" thing again. As far as just chanting the company line, of course he will if he wants to keep his job, since he is not union .
But he does manage to imply that he likes the original Monaro clip better, I agree it does look better than the GTO.
And he is also right it will sell no matter what it looks like cuz of it is V8 and rear drive performance. Any port looks good in a storm ya know.
I do think he sounds a little arrogant tho about his car. I doubt he has ever been to the GTO Nationals, or ridden in a real GTO. Nor do I think he really understands what GTO means to current American GTO owners.
.But he does manage to imply that he likes the original Monaro clip better, I agree it does look better than the GTO.
And he is also right it will sell no matter what it looks like cuz of it is V8 and rear drive performance. Any port looks good in a storm ya know.
I do think he sounds a little arrogant tho about his car. I doubt he has ever been to the GTO Nationals, or ridden in a real GTO. Nor do I think he really understands what GTO means to current American GTO owners.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 384
From: Australia
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by guionM:
Knowing as many as I do, I can see where he is comming from. If we take a look at this site regarding the car, there is alot of complaining about a car that isn't even out yet from a country whose only RWD 4 seater performance car is a Mustang (the Cobra, which is sold down there is viewed as a cheap rip-off, just to give you some perspective).
</font>
Knowing as many as I do, I can see where he is comming from. If we take a look at this site regarding the car, there is alot of complaining about a car that isn't even out yet from a country whose only RWD 4 seater performance car is a Mustang (the Cobra, which is sold down there is viewed as a cheap rip-off, just to give you some perspective).
</font>
It probably isn't a cheap rip-off (expensive rip-off is more like it for us Aussies) when you consider what you can get for that kind of money.
I believe that Ford Australia imported something like 100-120 Mustangs and converted them to right hand drive. Only half had sold I believe but I am getting that from the top of my head (read it somewhere, but I don't remember where from now).
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jrp4uc:
I'm glad to see they went back to the original Monaro designers for this iteration. I'm not going to sell these guys short or take offense. From their standpoint, they've worked really hard on a car that has been a great seller and well received by the press and public. Because of this success, it's being sent to our shores and all they hear is, "well, that's not good enough" and "I don't think so--it's no GTO!". So I can see where they come off saying, "don't worry, it'll surpas anything the GTO of decades past did". They sold out their original artistic expression so it would look like a Pontiac because we asked for it. Come on. I think a lot of you are just looking for soundbytes to jump on or comments to pick apart. The car's coming over here in a year and from the sound of things, as it appears in that sketch. If you don't like it, fine, don't preorder one. I'm sure someone will step up in your place.
</font>
I'm glad to see they went back to the original Monaro designers for this iteration. I'm not going to sell these guys short or take offense. From their standpoint, they've worked really hard on a car that has been a great seller and well received by the press and public. Because of this success, it's being sent to our shores and all they hear is, "well, that's not good enough" and "I don't think so--it's no GTO!". So I can see where they come off saying, "don't worry, it'll surpas anything the GTO of decades past did". They sold out their original artistic expression so it would look like a Pontiac because we asked for it. Come on. I think a lot of you are just looking for soundbytes to jump on or comments to pick apart. The car's coming over here in a year and from the sound of things, as it appears in that sketch. If you don't like it, fine, don't preorder one. I'm sure someone will step up in your place.
</font>
One thing Holden are very good at is marketing and designing a car for the market. If that translates smoothly to the American markets is the big question mark. I can personally see the similarities between the Monaro and GTO. The main one being the years they where produced, around mid 1960 to mid 1970. The Monaro was aimed at people in the middle aged group (35-50) who heard about the Monaro (or GTO) and wanted one, or their parents had one. The years have past and those people are now older. Where as young people tend to like hard aggressive lines, as you get older, have kids and a wife (or 3 if your unlucky
) you get soft. Hald lines just don't appeal to that market anymore and that is the main reason why the Monaro has such clean line. Because it has been designed for that market, like the new GTO, and unless the American market goes against what i have said above then the design is on the right track. If the new GTO pulls in younger buyers then GM is appealing to a market that they are not chasing and is a bonus for them (bigger market without trying = excellent).Another similarity between the 2 is that before the new Monaro was given the Monaro name the press started calling it Monaro, then the public started calling it the Monaro. So what are you gonna call it??? Monaro of course! From what i have read, a similar thing happen with the new GTO. A coupe was rumored to be returning and people speculated that it would be called GTO. It was announced and called the GTO (public pressure?).
In both cases lovers of the old Monaro and GTO are/where/still pissed because it isn't the original and the old name should be left alone with the good memories about the name left as is. It didn't stop them from being call that, some people are pissed, some love it. But the big question is will the target market love it? If they do, then the complaints will lessen (like here in Aus) annd it will be accepted. If it fails the GM gets called idiots for bring back the GTO name. Now we only have to wait 12-24 months to find out which one it is.
Please correct any facts that i have got wrong. this turned out waaaaaaaaay longer than i intended :P
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 190
From: Toronto, Ont, Canada
Of course the Monaro guys are gonna be a bit mad. They did after all put a lot of work into the car, making sure it lived up to their own legendary muscle car. Now, they have to share it with Pontiac.
Take a look at these pictures of Monaro development, they will give you an idea of the work that went into this great car.
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2129977_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2129841_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2129508_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2128738_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2127753_pv.jpg
http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/20...o-studiod2.jpg
Also, check out the story of its development here: http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/20...aro/index.html
Before you pass judgment on the GTO, or the Monaro with its excellent designers, keep in mind the work that goes into a car like this.
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---Ted Krygier-->
TED ONLINE
[This message has been edited by !!!TED!!! (edited June 26, 2002).]
Take a look at these pictures of Monaro development, they will give you an idea of the work that went into this great car.
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2129977_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2129841_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2129508_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2128738_pv.jpg
http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2002/02/...2127753_pv.jpg
http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/20...o-studiod2.jpg
Also, check out the story of its development here: http://www.cardesignnews.com/news/20...aro/index.html
Before you pass judgment on the GTO, or the Monaro with its excellent designers, keep in mind the work that goes into a car like this.
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---Ted Krygier-->
TED ONLINE
[This message has been edited by !!!TED!!! (edited June 26, 2002).]
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
I think we need to step back here and stop the name calling, etc......
Most people who are voicing a dissenting opinion on the GTO only seem to be trying to make a few points:
When GM decided to use the historic moniker "GTO" this strongly implies that it would have strong ties to the original versions. Sure thay gave us a car that followed the same thought proccess as the original (no need to re-re-hash that here) BUT they gave us only the smallest visual tie-ins...dual grills....a victim of "corporate" identity. Remember Chevy tried to make all of us wear that horrid broad brushed aluminum bar in the grille (SSR, got stuck w/ it) With the success of the PT Cruiser, T-Bird, Prowler, etc... GM seems to be pertrified of committing themselves to a project, but choosing instead a defensive approach of "we're not going to invest a ton of $$ in a car that we don't even know will be accepted"....a self-fulfilling prophecy in my book. Remember the re-bodied Chevette they called the Fiero? Wasn't until the car had destroyed it's own reputation that they finally made it live up to the promises it first hit the ground with. GM has waaaaaay too many of these models in their closet....half-@$$ed efforts lead to failure time and again.
It's already been said dozens of times....if you're going to call it something that we all know......then make it familiar....otherwise simply call it something else! This goes for the Camaro too...when it comes back, it sure as hell better look like a Camaro....or just name it something else. We're NOT saying we won't buy it and learn to love it for all it does, we're just making this very point.
What it seems to me is a strong willed artist/designer (aren't they all) and a corporate culture of hiding behind the blanket of security have given us a great car in a forgettable design....with the name of a legend. (forgetting the prostituted versions of the late 70's, etc...).
Who here doesn't honestly believe that IF they had only given us the front fascia/hood that DutchInjun drew the car would have sold many times the anticipated volume? Sure they may sell all 20k........but wouldn't the really been happy with 3-4 times that?? (well maybe the UAW wouldnn't have been happy, but the rest of us and the stockholders would have been tickled).
JMHO........
[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 26, 2002).]
Most people who are voicing a dissenting opinion on the GTO only seem to be trying to make a few points:
When GM decided to use the historic moniker "GTO" this strongly implies that it would have strong ties to the original versions. Sure thay gave us a car that followed the same thought proccess as the original (no need to re-re-hash that here) BUT they gave us only the smallest visual tie-ins...dual grills....a victim of "corporate" identity. Remember Chevy tried to make all of us wear that horrid broad brushed aluminum bar in the grille (SSR, got stuck w/ it) With the success of the PT Cruiser, T-Bird, Prowler, etc... GM seems to be pertrified of committing themselves to a project, but choosing instead a defensive approach of "we're not going to invest a ton of $$ in a car that we don't even know will be accepted"....a self-fulfilling prophecy in my book. Remember the re-bodied Chevette they called the Fiero? Wasn't until the car had destroyed it's own reputation that they finally made it live up to the promises it first hit the ground with. GM has waaaaaay too many of these models in their closet....half-@$$ed efforts lead to failure time and again.
It's already been said dozens of times....if you're going to call it something that we all know......then make it familiar....otherwise simply call it something else! This goes for the Camaro too...when it comes back, it sure as hell better look like a Camaro....or just name it something else. We're NOT saying we won't buy it and learn to love it for all it does, we're just making this very point.
What it seems to me is a strong willed artist/designer (aren't they all) and a corporate culture of hiding behind the blanket of security have given us a great car in a forgettable design....with the name of a legend. (forgetting the prostituted versions of the late 70's, etc...).
Who here doesn't honestly believe that IF they had only given us the front fascia/hood that DutchInjun drew the car would have sold many times the anticipated volume? Sure they may sell all 20k........but wouldn't the really been happy with 3-4 times that?? (well maybe the UAW wouldnn't have been happy, but the rest of us and the stockholders would have been tickled).
JMHO........
[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 26, 2002).]
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,215
From: Coppell, Texas
And what of the internet debate about the suitability of Monaro as a GTO? "My method on that one is 'grow up a bit, this is a car that will take you three or four steps above where a GTO left the market', so that's probably appropriate,"
Ah, so true! This car is gonna rock, and it will be a great GTO. I like how a person stands behind their work, and isn't just a push over when it gets a little bit of criticism.
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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash
Ah, so true! This car is gonna rock, and it will be a great GTO. I like how a person stands behind their work, and isn't just a push over when it gets a little bit of criticism.
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-Joshua
1997 Bright Red T/A WS6 M6
I was thinking dagger. -Steve Nash