My understanding is that Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac are ALL untouchable. That's the global strategy GM was pursuing before the collapse and nothing has changed (except it sped everything up)

I hear that people would LIKE for GMC to make the jump as well (and hopefully it will. I don't see why it wouldn't/shouldn't) But Pontiac is DOA. This troubles me because 1) Why not go the extra mile to save a niche division that could prove a money maker down the road? and 2) That's the GM division that fits me the best. GM will have to work VERY hard to get my business back if they destroy (finish destroying) Pontiac when they (as always) HAD the perfect plan and (AS ALWAYS) deviated from it out of ignorance.

Hopefully Pontiac will be bought by someone who knows how to run the division correctly, but I'm not betting on it.

1) GMC is GM's second biggest division and is PURE profit. 2) Buick is GM's champion in China (READ: the market where almost ALL of the growth is and a market that now PWNS america) Those two reason alone are cause for keeping the divisions.

The appeal of Buick in China is it's american roots. If the division is killed here, it'll likely lose a lot of it's appeal.



GM will never recover from Ch. 11. It's just one more reason for people to hate them and the media to try and sway people to hate them. If GM goes Ch 11, there will be NO competing with Toyota.

Just goes to show that if you keep pressuring the giants enough (as the media and green politicians did) they'll eventually collapse. First they attacked Chrysler, which resulted in a weakened state and a new german owner. Then it was Ford (which would've been all but bankrupt a few years ago, had the Ford family not been involved) and now it has been GM's turn (since circa 2005 -- which makes sense because Ford was damaged badly as of 2004)

That's not to say that Detroitr hasn't made TONS and TONS of horrible decisions and contributed greatly to their respective weakness.

Bankruptcy judge.



And I thought the idea was to SAVE jobs, not downsize... Therefore, the canceellation of divisions and Bankruptcy makes NO sense at all IMO.

But hey... The politicians aren't line workers, so they don't care.

 

What I don't get is why GM has to get so much smaller to be competitive. Our auto industry is a national pride...and we should not allow foriegn companies to outsell our competitors here. Do you think Japan would stand for GM outselling them in their own country?

The root GM issues here are legacy costs, and buyers perceptions. Quite simply because of rising legacy costs, GM went through a period where it did not invest enough in their products, and it lost market share. The lost market share then provided even less money to reinvest in new models..so GM started cutting models and brands. It's a never ending spiral. The buyer perception problems came from lack of investment in product dut to legacy cost.

All the government really has to do is fix legacy costs, and then provide some kind of tax credit or incentive for people to buy American cars. I know that will ruffle feathers, but they have no issue putting stipulations in the stimulus bills that things like american steel have to be used. If you take the 1000 pound weight of legacy costs of GM's shoulders, and provide them wit near term financing the ship would right itself.

Think about it...for a second....who benefits from a much smaller, weaker GM?............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................

Not the workers...
Not the Bondholders...
Not the Shareholders....
Not the Union.....
Not the taxpayers (less jobs, higher unemployment benefits, less tax income)....


When you think of it...the only one who benefits the way this mess is currently structured is the environmental lobbies who will have a powerful roadblock out the way.

 

I agree.

Had you understood my implication, then you wouldn't be so far out in left field trying to insult me with such a lame comparison.

What I meant is; GM will never beat Toyota by trying to become Toyota. The market research on the brands proves this. That's why GM wanted to make Buick/Pontiac/GMC as is and LEVERAGE it portfolio of vehicles in different markets in different ways.

GM has TRIED to emmulate Toyota in design and that failed miserably. GM even built 2 entire divisions that tried to emmulate Toyota cars and both are gone. GM has a joint venture factory with Toyota that hasn't produced quality cars (noteworthy quality)... ever...

GM will not find fortune until it becomes innovative again and leads the industry in every aspect (like in it's heyday) Even then, with all of those great attributes it'll be a HUGE task to convince the consumer that GM makes as good or better cars. Especially with the media reinforcing EVERY negative stereotype on a daily basis.

Therefore, GM needs to DEFINE a direction that plays on GM's assets and merits and become GM again. GM does NOT need to try and copycat a company that it is really nothing like. The consumer is too smart for that, they know it's hypocritical. Besides; why would they even bother to buy from a GM that is as good/the same thing as Toyota when they're perfectly content in a Toyota? GM needs to be better; it needs to lead.

That still doesn't mean they need to be Toyota.


Undoubtedly brought by a poor corporate culture (That we've all seen firsthand)

Which brings me back to my question of why the board hasn't been cleaned out. In order for GM to change, new people need to be brought in. Henderson is a decent start, but he's also just a figure head and noise piece.



No contest here... But they're not going to do it by becoming SAID car company.

And BTW, Toyota (as I'm sure you know) is highly overrated and constantly rides on past strengths while taking shortcuts for the present and future. Hopefully someday the media will pick them apart like they did Detroit (but I doubt it) And hopefully someday the public will realize the sham that they've been "grown" into.

 

I agree 100%

Of course not. But Japan is A LOT smarter than america when it comes to industry and business.

I agree... Even Fritz Henderson was quoted today as saying "You can never cut yourself to prosperity" GM has been trying to do that for FAR too long. And they have forfeited equity, customers and potential because of it.

But that would require patriotism. And in america, patriotism is a violation of freedom (apparently) We're so spolied that we MUST have what we want at all costs and now that mentality is catching up to us.

 

Seems the world is a a bit circular anyway. A year ago Ford was on it's death bed...now it is the smartest car company there is. Two years ago Walmart was the boogie man...now suddenly people are flocking their and they are one of the few retailers with growth.

 

California is leading the charge on this and seem to be at war with the automotive industry. Maybe 1 in 10,000 care about the birthplace of hot rodding but the other 9,999 could not care less.

 

If we aren't supposed to be able to choose fonts why are different ones offered?

 

I think it makes perfect sense. Chevy = entry level, Buick/GMC = mid level, Cadillac = luxury. If they can consolidate all their brands under a single dealership structure, most Pontiac models become completely unnecessary. Also what was this "perfect plan" you are referring to?

IMO the brand GM is really going to miss is Saturn, because their customers tend to be import conquests. However, they too overlap Chevrolet directly, and GM can no longer afford them.

 

Politicians. There is practically zero public support for the automotive bailout outside of Michigan. (Obama said it polled worse than the AIG). That means doing the minimum necessary to get GM back on their feet with as little public risk as possible.

Besides, GM has already burned through hundreds of billions of dollars trying to regain marketshare with their bloated corporate structure. There is no reason to believe that putting in a few hundred billion more would produce any different results.

 

If its not part of The New GM, then it will most likely die.

It would be more accurate to say that the bankruptcy judge ratifies the decision. The decision itself will be made by the trustee, in conjunction with the board and the auto task force and whoever else is involved in this.

With all due respect, that's because you don't understand it. The purpose of all of this is to end up with a company that can make money on a smaller volume. It would be great if GM could get a larger volume, but the consensus is that that's impossible. The Big Three (I still like that better than The Detroit Three, even if it's no longer accurate) has been buying volume for years, and that just isn't working.

And the government can't force people to buy American cars without violating a whole bunch of trade agreements. The only way forward is to make GM profitable, which means that it has to get buy selling cars that it makes a profit on. So what everyone has been trying to do is figure out what level that is and then size the company for that.

A section 363 bankruptcy allows GM to do this very quickly.

The reason why the government is helping this process along is to save jobs and U.S. car companies.

 

Who knows. GM has never been in a position to attempt this. U.S. products do sell quite well in Japan. Every computer sold in Japan has a microprocessor designed by a U.S. company. Apple sells well there. What does GM offer that's appropriate for the Japanese market?

Yes, and that perception results in Toyotas and Hondas being valued higher than most of their domestic competition. It's easy to see why that's a problem when Toyota and Honda's lower labor costs let them build those cars more cheaply using U.S. workers!

What you're suggesting is what the 363 does. Except for the tax credit. The tax credit would violate trade agreements. Violating trade agreements would be a really bad idea, in my opinion.

 

Are you kidding? California is that stupid. I have lived here all my life and have watched this great state go to ****, and its only getting worse For the first time in my life I am actually thinking of leaving.

 

I have a friend who left Stockton as soon as he finished high school

 

I hope the whole process is that quick because this place (as is nearly every other auto forum I frequent) is a place of highs and lows throughout the day.

 

You are able to choose it as you wish, but I find it annoying and distracting. This makes me, personally, not want to read your posts. If you want to continue to use it I can just add you to my ignore list and I won't have that problem any more.

I was just giving you a heads up as to how I and some other people might feel.